Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[opendoor]

who's applying Asian philosophy to tango now?

Sorry, but there is no single Asian philosophy. Taoism, Buddhism and Veda are separated by universes. Unfortunately, no Asian wants to admit that.

 

[pianistamediano]

Addendum: remove any mention of the Asian origins of that philosophy of learning, and it still stands by itself. Do that to Chan Park's sales pitch, and he loses his unique selling point.

 

[pianistamediano]

Sorry, but there is no single Asian philosophy. Taoism, Buddhism and Veda are separated by universes. Unfortunately, no Asian wants to admit that.

The vast majority of Westerners see us as some nebulous Asian entity, united as one in tradition and culture!

 

[opendoor]

The vast majority of Westerners see us as some nebulous Asian entity, united as one in tradition and culture!

I'm not the vast majority. My Facebook comments should have proven that I am well versed in several schools of philosophy and asian theology. Or could it be that because of our western analytical thinking, Westerners should actually tutor Asians in their very own tradition?

 

[JournalInTime]

Gender and role aren't the only things that matter, they may not even be the things that matter the most. Teaching style, approachability, empathy, availability, price, etc.. could all be important factors as well.

My advice would be to first decide what you want to get out of the private lesson.

Best comment so far!

—

What do I want? I don't want a teacher, but a coach. I don't want "a few lessons," but a years-long working relationship. I don't want to dance with my coach, but with my partner. I don't want to work on new technique or vocabulary, but to refine existing knowledge that I've already gone over many times in earlier private lessons.

For me, then, being micro-corrected on incompletely grasped concepts by someone outside my dance couple is what matters. I take private lessons to nudge 50% to 75%, 75% to 87.5%, 87.5% to 93.75%, and so on. I know that sequence is infinite and ends with me never reaching 100%, and I know it costs the same money to go from 50% to 75% as to go from 99.8% to 99.9% . . . and I have no problem with that!

This requires a person with these properties: long experience with many other dancers, an eye for fine distinctions, a great deal of patience, an excellent memory for where I was every step of the way for years, and a game plan that goes years into the future. None of that is linked to role, gender, or whatnot. There are unavoidably role- or body shape-linked concepts . . . when those come up, we bring in a second, male coach who primarily leads socially to work with our main, female coach who primarily follows socially. Yes, that costs more, but as I've said, that's not a factor – we aren't rich, but we have two incomes, no kids, and no debt.

The original poster might want something totally different, of course, or have less (or more!) time and money to throw at their goals. Also, they might be starting from a different place. I'm speaking from the place of having danced 20+ hours/week for 11 years and countless hundreds of lessons, so I'm probably no longer a beginner.

—

As for clones and copies: Sorry to disagree with those who don't believe in this, but it happens. I can tell you which teachers most of our local community have worked with just by watching a tanda. Some copy their teachers right down to the facial expressions, for heaven's sake! It isn't subtle, and it's attributable to coming to the private lessons without an established "tango identity" and asking the teacher to provide that, which I think is a bigger risk when one dances with the teacher.

It's a point of pride for me that people cannot figure out who my coach is, and feel obligated to ask. This is because I don't go to my coach for vocabulary (which I make up) or musicality (which is mine and not negotiable in my coaching sessions), much less to dance with her. I go to her for wise answers general philosophical questions like "How do we better activate the back?", "How do we make phrasing more dynamic?", and "How do we minimize the energy wasted in turns?" These are conceptual, mostly internal things; ideally, they won't be visible to anyone who isn't a coach with the aforementioned eye for fine distinction.

 

[pianistamediano]

I'm not the vast majority. My Facebook comments should have proven that I am well versed in several schools of philosophy and asian theology. Or could it be that because of our western analytical thinking, Westerners should actually tutor Asians in their very own tradition?

(Not directed at you) It's almost a form of fetishization, that Asian concepts are exotic and interesting and therefore many Westerners try to take them, make them palatable to other Westerners by removing them from their original context, and more often than not try to commercialise the result. It often feels like we're reduced only to the parts of ourselves that are interesting and sanitised, and they take only the parts of our cultures that they feel good enough, and then they ignore or denigrate the rest. For example, sushi is widely accepted because it's unique and pretty. Chicken's feet? Ew! """Disgusting"""!

I don't mind non-Asian people enjoying our traditions and heritages and whatnot. I really like sharing my culture and history and traditions and food (!!!) with people who don't know much about them. I like learning about Asian cultures that aren't specifically my own. I'm from a very Westernised Asian multicultural country that still tries to preserve its cultural and traditional origins at its core.

I just don't like them grossly commercialising our cultures or warping them beyond recognition in an attempt to make them digestible.

 

[JournalInTime]

I don't want to work on new technique or vocabulary, but to refine existing knowledge that I've already gone over many times in earlier private lessons.

It isn't subtle, and it's attributable to coming to the private lessons without an established "tango identity" and asking the teacher to provide that, which I think is a bigger risk when one dances with the teacher.

By the way, the above two matters get at why I don't think private lessons are optimal for beginners:

1. They don't have many basics to refine in the first place. Group lessons are a better place to find those.

2. They don't have a "tango identity" they're willing to fight to keep. Dancing at the milonga for years is a better place to develop that. And group lessons are the right place to meet people of your level so that you have people to dance with at the milonga.

Getting into private lessons too soon cuts off personal growth and makes you an extension of your teacher. You might get lucky and meet a teacher who knows better than to do that, but teachers are as prone to ego trips as anybody else, and some want disciples. You might get lucky and find a teacher who can present you at the milonga and/or introduce you to other people of your level so you can dance, but the majority go to the milonga on their own time and dislike playing matchmaker.

 

[JournalInTime]

You sometimes get another perspective from the other sex in the alternative role. For example we (me first) learnt volcadas from a male 'leader' with him in the follower role. He's taller than me and put all his weight on me.

That's how I learned all of my off-axis vocabulary, and also lifts. My instructor was a muscular ballet guy capable of casually carrying people around for hours. His "tough love" lesson for me was, in essence, "In tango, weight and strength have little to do with it. It's all about technique."

We (me included) also had privates with a female primarily follower. Learnt a lot of basic leader technique there.

My main coach is a woman who dances socially as a follower. She gives my partner excellent, hard-won follower tips. She gives me honest feedback on what I do that makes it hard for her to be a follower . . . and that's the single most important thing leaders need. Too many leaders focus on "cool moves" or complex musicality that they cannot communicate to their follower. If they focused on their follower, they'd discover that moves and musicality are emergent, not fundamental.

It's not just about lessons. It's the practice time with a partner, and different partners of differing standards. I wake up with my dance partner and we've been sharing our perspective with each other for decades.

Same, except that it's just a decade here – not decades, plural! It's a huge advantage to have and live with a long-term dance partner. Quite literally every teacher or coach I've ever had has taken the time to state, in no uncertain terms, that dancers with such partners go farther, faster. However . . .

But you also need that practica to talk to other leaders/followers and get feedback.

. . . this is essential, too, unless you only ever want to dance de facto choreographies "led" by anticipation. Even with a full-time, long-term partner, you have to work with others to advance. My partner and I show up to the práctica separately, and make a point of dancing with beginners to make sure we're being 100% honest – me about really leading what I think I'm leading, her about following what's led rather than what's expected.

(The latter is also about "giving back." I spot followers being told to "do the thing" by impatient leaders who aren't leading "the thing" correctly, I invite them, and I lead the "the thing" in sight of their leaders so that they understand that the issue is the lead. My partner spots leaders who think they're leading one thing, she dances what they've actually led, and she gives them an important lesson in how, if they're ambiguous or leaving unintended openings, experienced followers will be forced to choose and act.)

None of this is likely to give you musicality to interpret the music to steps. That's up to you to listen, and become familiar with, AT music - and then try it. Instructors can usually give you some basic clues.

I agree. Musicality can't be taught; it can only be jump-started or inspired. It's individual, and extended lessons in it are what's most likely to create clone dancers. It doesn't matter if your musicality is "bizarre," playing with weird parts of the music, instruments in the background, etc. rather than sitting on top of the strong beat or dominant instrument or melody. What matters is that the music, not the desire to bust "cool moves," is why you're dancing each step you dance.

 

[Rabbit]

It often feels like we're reduced only to the parts of ourselves that are interesting and sanitised, and they take only the parts of our cultures that they feel good enough, and then they ignore or denigrate the rest.

Well, every culture has done that to every other culture it's in contact with. Actually, tango, its subcultures and interactions with other dances are a good analogy.

 

[TTanguero]

What matters is that the music, not the desire to bust "cool moves," is why you're dancing each step you dance.

All my teachers quickly come to understand that they can't do their usual 'let's try this without the music until you get the technique' approach with me! I simply can't dance without the music, even if it's 'just' a fundamental issue we're exploring – I still need the music to give me a reason to make a movement which employs the technique.

 

[TTanguero]

1. They don't have many basics to refine in the first place. Group lessons are a better place to find those.

2. They don't have a "tango identity" they're willing to fight to keep.

I suspect you are right generally, though I'm proof that this isn't always the case. I actually started with privates, before any group classes, and am very, very glad I did so!

 

[JournalInTime]

All my teachers quickly come to understand that they can't do their usual 'let's try this without the music until you get the technique' approach doesn't work with me! I simply can't dance without the music, even if it's 'just' a fundamental issue we're exploring – I still need the music to give me a reason to make a movement which employs the technique.

Same. I actually need two things:

1. Music. I have no internal "metronome." The upside is that I'm always dancing the music – which provides the metronome – rather than what's in my head. The downside is that I can't work on anything that's even a little timing-dependent (which is almost everything) without music . . . though it doesn't have to be tango, and I have worked with an actual metronome.

2. Line of dance, if only imaginary. I never drill in place. All of my work moves counterclockwise around the lesson space, and I weirdly avoid backing up or changing my distance from the boundaries ("lane") even if I have the whole room to myself. I've asked coaches to tailgate or block me to see if I can make the concept work without infinite space, too.

 

[JournalInTime]

I suspect you are right generally, though I'm proof that this isn't always the case. I actually started with privates, before any group classes, and am very, very glad I did so!

Sure, everything any of us writes here is at best "in general" and at worst "in my case." I know a few people who went from being total non-dancers to tango dancers via private lessons from Day One. It's definitely possible.

Where I live and study, however, I see no easy workaround for meeting people at one's level when one is a beginner . . . Prácticas and milongas are associated with studios that give group classes – not with private teachers. People at the prácticas tend to be students from those classes sticking to their group. Experienced people at the milongas tend to invite people who dance, so a beginner with no peers to dance with won't be invited because they're not dancing; that isn't a question of being too snobby to dance with beginners but one of being hesitant to invite someone before seeing their skills on show.

As my coach said just the other day, "Random people at the milonga don't see your private work, only its results." You might be more gifted than I am, but the results didn't speak very loudly for me at first. So, I appreciated having a dozen followers to dance with whose names I knew and who were at my level.

 

[TTanguero]

a beginner with no peers to dance with won't be invited because they're not dancing

Yep, absolutely. For me, privates are for learning, group classes are for meeting new followers.

 

[JournalInTime]

Yep, absolutely. For me, privates are for learning, group classes are for meeting new followers.

I switched from group classes to private lessons almost exclusively two years into my tango journey. By that point, I was a beginner-intermediate dancer who was the bartender and main class accompanier at a studio, so I had lots of social introductions and many partners, and was able to find more by going out to dance. At this stage, I have too many . . . I also realized that I got way, way, way more out of private lessons than out of any of the many workshops I tried with visiting teachers, at festivals, and so on. I'll own up to checking out the topic of every workshop in town and asking my coach to coach me in the topics I found interesting.

However, my friends who jumped directly into private lessons found workshops very useful . . . and not for the tango concepts. Basically, they saw those as ways to find dance partners, especially at festivals. That eventually led to finding more by going out to dance.

Who had the better arc? I have no idea. I do stick to my belief that workshops are too brief, include too little one-on-one correction, and involve teachers who know too little about your previous training to be all that useful.