Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Brummbaer]

For private lessons, if I am a leader, is it better to go to Leader(male) instructor or follower instructor. I mean all instructors learn both roles for teaching purposes, but when they dance at milongas or practicas, they usually dance in their main role. So, should leaders go to leaders?

It depends on the teacher(s). We've had private lessons individually, but mostly together, with male leaders and female followers as their primary role, and couples - with their primary role and swapping. You sometimes get another perspective from the other sex in the alternative role. For example we (me first) learnt volcadas from a male 'leader' with him in the follower role. He's taller than me and put all his weight on me. I suppose the main justification was 'safety'. If I could support him (extremely simplistic viewpoint!), then we were 'safe' together and with others.

We (me included) also had privates with a female primarily follower. Learnt a lot of basic leader technique there.

We've also had private lessons with other couples where one has observed and given their perspective - almost always extremely helpful (including the occasional domestic disagreement - he got his lead wrong accidentally, so she demonstrated what should happen with him following! Great argument in Spanish!).

I guess it depends on your teacher. There are no qualifications for an 'instructor' (except, maybe, in ballroom)! A primary follower/leader may just be keeping one lesson ahead in their alternative leader/follower role. And especially your 'level' (let's say beginner, novice, intermediate, advanced) affects what you get from them. A follower may not fully understand the lead; a leader may not fully understand following. And there are always the subtleties of leading/following some move.

It's not just about lessons. It's the practice time with a partner, and different partners of differing standards. I wake up with my dance partner and we've been sharing our perspective with each other for decades. I can ask what I need to do to lead some move better - it's not just 'steps'. I can explain what I'm trying to do - and she can tell me that's not working. But you also need that practica to talk to other leaders/followers and get feedback.

The best option is to try it and see! But be prepared to move on. None of this is likely to give you musicality to interpret the music to steps. That's up to you to listen, and become familiar with, AT music - and then try it. Instructors can usually give you some basic clues.

 

[TTanguero]

All that ends up happening is that you become a clone of the dancer your teacher thinks is ideal

I don't think there's any danger of that, unless you're the type of student who seeks to emulate rather than learn.

I do personally think there's value in having more than one teacher, and having a mix of primary leaders/followers within that.

 

[Bailango]

I don't think that 1:1 private lessons are optimal. All that ends up happening is that you become a clone of the dancer your teacher thinks is ideal. I saw so many leaders fall into this trap with followers who teach here . . . They all became "the leader Ms. X would like to dance with." Zero universality.

I would have to slightly disagree. I learnt almost all of my tango through group lessons and workshops. I took a few privates. My personal experience is that when I took privates with a couple instructors I got the best out of it. The female would give pointers and also let the male counterpart know where she thought I needed adjustments. Then male counterpart could figure out the adjustments. There were some privates where I only worked with either of the two. And some with both at the same time. My tango was fairly well developed by time I took the privates. After about 5 or 6 the male instructor thought I needed a partner for the next private. I took one friend with me and that was a disaster. Then the next one I think instructor found someone to pair me with. To me having another person share the private as a partner slowed down my learning. I wasn’t doing much or my time wasn’t being optimized while instructor and I spent time correcting the follower partner. I was learning much faster with female instructor present along with the male instructor as I had 100% attention from both. It was like taking two one hour privates. Where as taking a private with a female partner was like taking a half hour private.

The problem is finding a female partner for private who is at a similar level technically as well as experienced wise and is also interested in taking privates. I don’t mean dance experience in years. I meant dance experience as in her level compatibility.

We do have one or two solo female teachers. I know some of the men who are their regular students and take privates from them. None of them look like clones or dance similarly.

If you are in an area which has good group lessons or workshops, my personal recommendation is 1 private for every 20 or so group lessons. That really depends on quality of group lessons. I don’t take group lessons unless I know the quality will be high.

Taking privates as a couple largely removes that risk. Also, you don't have to be an established couple! You can pick some random follower you happen to like and pay private lessons 50/50. I've done it and it works.

As I said for me it didn’t work. But I can totally see why taking private with a couple instructor works for the leaders. There is an immediate feedback loop. From both instructors. They can fix the things from different angles. The male instructor can work on mechanics and the female instructor on how application of the mechanics work (or what we call feel) in the hold. A male instructor can get you there about 90%. Having a their female counterpart gets you there 100% sometimes.

There are a few female instructors with whom I could take a private. One example is Luciana Vals (if I spelt it correctly). She teaches solo and I will definitely recommend if she is visiting your area. I prefer instructors who are both cerebral about Tango and have ability to explain technical break down beyond the way most instructors do.

For follower taking privates from male instructor does work. I have seen followers dancing take a leap after regular privates with male instructors. Because I have been dancing with them for a while before they started taking privates.

 

[Bailango]

In the contrary, we have privates as a couple. Sometimes we go separately if there's something specific. It's highly productive as a couple.

As far as I know in social dancing if you are a couple it is advisable to learn separately for the sake of relationship both need to have high IQ to learn together.

It can be frustrating when a partner is being obstinate, slow, on a different learning trajectory. A lot of dance teachers always advise couples to take lessons separately. Also in the start due to beginner’s hell for the leader there is big differential that develops.

 

[Bailango]

I can agree with that, it works. But then the leader should really take a different follower with him each time.

To me taking a random follower doesn’t work. In the group lessons too it is me helping out my follower partner to debug things.

 

[Brummbaer]

As far as I know in social dancing if you are a couple it is advisable to learn separately for the sake of relationship both need to have high IQ to learn together.

It can be frustrating when a partner is being obstinate, slow, on a different learning trajectory. A lot of dance teachers always advise couples to take lessons separately. Also in the start due to beginner’s hell for the leader there is big differential that develops.

Uncertain whether or not I should take that as a compliment! But I'd disagree. It's more about complementing each other within the relationship. Nothing to do with IQ.

I guess we've been through a lot together - including dance in other genres.

I can think of higher risk strategies of being in a relationship and then having another dance partner (ah, the stuff of movies). But, even then, I've known it work.

 

[opendoor]

..In the contrary, we have privates as a couple...

I don't want to deny that private lessons or coaching of a permanent dance couple can be an important element in their development, Brummbaer. But concerning the topic your answer was a bit off-topic for me. I was primarily referring to the question of the opener (leader, single), who asked about the cis or trans constellation in 1:1 privates. Secondly it was only when JournalInTime formulated "perfect" option that this sideshow about couples came up.

To tell you about myself, my partner is also a tango dancer. But we have never really practiced together or even had private lessons together. Rather, we have always taken meticulous care to ensure that the practice program, the curriculum tango, the regular and occasional dance partnerships were strictly separate. You probably will guess, but I am firmly convinced that the quality of the dance and sex will suffer when you book privates as a couple.

 

[pianistamediano]

I can think of higher risk strategies of being in a relationship and then having another dance partner (ah, the stuff of movies). But, even then, I've known it work.

I know a group of friends (about 6 in total, which includes their romantic partners IIRC) whose romantic partners are each other's dance partners. This is quite possibly the most stable configuration I know of, because the friend circle supports each other, and any disagreements in practice do not spill over to their own personal lives.

 

[daisy_r]

For private lessons, if I am a leader, is it better to go to Leader(male) instructor or follower instructor. I mean all instructors learn both roles for teaching purposes, but when they dance at milongas or practicas, they usually dance in their main role. So, should leaders go to leaders?

Gender and role aren't the only things that matter, they may not even be the things that matter the most. Teaching style, approachability, empathy, availability, price, etc.. could all be important factors as well.

My advice would be to first decide what you want to get out of the private lesson. Do you want to work on your posture and technique? Do you want to work on making your lead clearer? Do you want to work on making your embrace more comfortable? Or do you want to work on a particular type of movement or concept?

For posture and technique, I'd ideally go to someone of the same gender and role.
For improving clarity of my lead I'd go to someone who leads
For working on a basic movement I'd ideally go to someone who dances the same role as me
For embrace feedback and tips I'd probably go to someone who dances the opposite role
For working on more advanced movements or concepts it could be either or a couple: same role as me so they can correct my technique, opposite role to me so that I can practice the move with someone sufficiently experienced to pull it off

This isn't a set of strict rules though, every instructor is different and there are many excellent teachers out there who seem to be able to give me super useful feedback no matter what.

At the end of the day I think some people spend a lot of time deciding who to learn from, but then they do silly things like scheduling the private lesson for a day when they are super busy and unable to absorb the information, or at a time of the week/month which means they are unable to revisit in the days that follow, so they end up forgetting most of what they were shown/told. My biggest piece of advice is that if you do take private lessons, make the most of them; write some notes or make a video so you can study after, or commit to a regular lesson schedule rather than doing a one-off.

 

[opendoor]

To me taking a random follower doesn’t work. In the group lessons too it is me helping out my follower partner to debug things.

That is exactly what I said: Only one benefits.

 

[opendoor]

I know a group of friends..

When you have been dancing tango for over 25 years, like I have, you always form private peer groups from the entire tango community. My closest circle of friends also are tango dancers. The women occasional were my practice partners, regular dance partners or lovers. The same goes for my wife.

 

[pianistamediano]

In my opinion, this danger does not exist.

I don't think that 1:1 private lessons are optimal. All that ends up happening is that you become a clone of the dancer your teacher thinks is ideal. I saw so many leaders fall into this trap with followers who teach here . . . They all became "the leader Ms. X would like to dance with." Zero universality.

I see this in London a lot, unfortunately. It does exist. There are so many dancers whose pedigree I could make a confident guess at; there is one new teaching couple who have been taught by another, and they are pretty much carbon copies of their "maestros", down to the highly and overly stylised embrace. I have no interest in them or dancing with the follower whatsoever until they break out of their mould and start dancing. If their own styles happen to be the same as their teachers, well...

It seems like too many tango dancers these days have no idea of the concept of 守破離, shu-ha-ri.

守 — shu — to protect, to obey; to learn the traditions, to develop one's foundations, to become disciplined

破 — ha — to break; breaking free of tradition, to find new ways, to innovate

離 — ri — to leave entirely; to remove attachments to forms, to approach unity with one's heart and desires, and to fly

This shouldn't be taken to mean that eventually anything goes, within the context of some field (tango, calligraphy, whatever). The foundations remain the same. Otherwise, you may as well dance salsa on the pista and call it tango.

I don't want or need to be like any one dancer, or to even be the best like so many dancers here desire. I will build on what I have learned, I will constantly analyse and prune and synthesise, I will be more and more myself as time goes by.

Long live individuality of style!

 

[pianistamediano]

A student must copy something, but only on the computer screen when you are analyzing performances of your idols. Every tango career incorporates elements from teachers and predecessors. Not everything is a de-novo reinvention. But of course you have to change your private teacher several times so that you don't take on the bad attitudes, I assumed that. But in a tango career, you never stand still: you keep questioning everything.

I obsessively study videos of leaders I am inspired by frame-by-frame because I want to take something from them — usually, there is a je ne sais quoi to their movement that I want to absorb with my own body. I add a video to my personal library if I find even one small detail that I love and want to make it my own; and often.


Like so; the quality and textures of Tete's movements resound in my heart, and I want to capture them and make them my own. There are so many tiny things he does that I love. I watch the shifts in his postures, the way his muscles move (as best as I can, given the quality of the video), the way he responds to the music. I try to enter into him and understand what he conveys to Rosanna.

Steps and sequences only give me ideas as to how I can develop my interpretation of the music and expression of the feelings I feel when dancing. I'm apparently one of the most unpredictable leaders here according to followers, but I personally feel that I'm sinking too much into learned patterns, so I want to break free of them.

And so I study both the forest and the trees, trying to maintain a high-level and low-level perspective on things. Unfortunately, I don't have direct access to these dancers, so I must necessarily figure out function from the form. That has worked surprisingly well, and my dance has continuously refined itself since I started this process.

 

[Rabbit]

It seems like too many tango dancers these days have no idea of the concept of 守破離, shu-ha-ri.

who's applying Asian philosophy to tango now?

 

[pianistamediano]

who's applying Asian philosophy to tango now?

It's merely an approach to pedagogy and learning, which is far more applicable than shoving zen/mindfulness face-first into tango.