Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[pianistamediano]

But the conscious brain logistics should be internalized after three years. Even then, it seems that no capacity is directed towards listening. Perhaps it is a question of priorities (both of the student and the teacher). Musicality workshops, even with stars like Joaquín Amenábar or Murat Emdesel, are never fully booked and have to be subsidized through the income from parties.

Yes, but right now, the majority of tango classes are focused on steps and sequences and embedding those things into muscle memory. With such a narrow focus on physical movement alone, the lack of musical education produces lacklustre, mediocre dancers who dance mechanically — ostensibly, "to the music". I won't even get into discussing how people simply refuse to understand the history and culture of tango.

Also, I find it somewhat insulting to be taking classes in musicality from non-musicians. Even if they are musicians like Joaquín, the content they cover in these workshops is designed for the average dancer who is not a musician and is therefore dumbed down and slowed down. Not enough theory either.

(I don't mean to say that I can't learn anything from non-musicians about music — just that I don't believe it's worth my time or money to spend that long in a class organised by them.)

Besides, I can always study and analyse the music by myself and seek help when necessary. No need to spend one or two hours going through banal musicality classes.

 

[pianistamediano]

I agree but I don't think it is being effectively taught. I have been able to teach listening perception 1 on 1 - I expect it to be harder in a group class because I discovered that everyone starts off hearing music in a different way

There is also timing, which can be drilled once you know what you are listening to

Then we have the translation / choreographic layer, which is just generally poorly understood

Yes, one-to-one is best for music.

I think most people just don't care enough about music these days. They're happy with a shallow, superficial understanding, as long as they can do that 17-step gancho-boleo-colgada-soltada sequence that the maestros showed them in the workshop the other day.

 

[TTanguero]

that 17-step gancho-boleo-colgada-soltada sequence that the maestros showed them in the workshop the other day

Actual footage of the post-workshop milonga:

 

[pianistamediano]

Actual footage of the post-workshop milonga:

View attachment 5886

Quite obviously a maestro in the making, this lad!

 

[JournalInTime]

Musicians are either really bad or really good dancers. It’s hard for a musician to face that it’s a different skill to dance to music than it is to play it, so many don’t try hard enough after experiencing that first troubling sensation of - for example - not knowing where ‘one’ is. But, once they apply themselves to really learn, they mostly become significantly more musical dancers than others of similar training and experience. This is something I have consciously observed over decades.

Musicians can be the most musical dancers and still be really bad dancers. I know not one, not two, but a fair list of musicians like that. This appears to be because they put musicality so far ahead of all other priorities – connection, floorcraft, intention, technique, vocabulary, etc. – that everything else suffers.

For instance, several followers have confided in me that one musician here has the best musicality, but they still dislike dancing with him due to his crushing embrace and ultra-limited vocabulary . . . he very skillfully matches utterly boring steps to the music and then drags his follower along. I avoid dancing near him due to his oblivious floorcraft (he literally closes his eyes to "feel the music" or something), and I find it hard to watch him dance due to his horrid posture, crossed lines, and sloppy collection. Tango musicality is nothing if it's oblivious, internal, and inelegant – it counts only if it's felt and seen from the outside, and pleasant to look at and be around.

A follower here is a musician with wonderful musicality. She also can't dance anywhere but half a mile from her partner because she never learned to share weight or manage the close embrace. She also can't keep her feet on the floor in a crowd. Quite a few leaders forgive all this because she's not only musical but also young, pretty, good-natured, and able to follow "advanced" moves led almost open . . . but I can't help but see someone who needs 10 times the space of any normal dancer to play air instruments using her heels. Tango musicality is also nothing if it's exaggerated and dangerous – it counts only if it can express the most complicated music with tight, respectful steps.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the amount of time and energy needed to master all the parts of tango that aren't musicality, plus that required to master being a musician, is such a massive burden that the majority of musician-dancers just don't feel like shouldering it.

 

[Miradamiranda]

. but I can't help but see someone who needs 10 times the space of any normal dancer to play air instruments using her heels.

I can just picture this!

 

[opendoor]

...It’s hard for a musician to face that it’s a different skill to dance to music than it is to play it, so many don’t try hard enough..

Absolutely agree. I'm good friends with Martin (pianist of Soltango) and Rupert (violinist of Cristal). Either of them is a talented musician and an excellent dancer. We all started dancing around 2000 and shared many classes, teachers, ups and downs.

 

[Bailango]

Musicians can be the most musical dancers and still be really bad dancers. I know not one, not two, but a fair list of musicians like that. This appears to be because they put musicality so far ahead of all other priorities – connection, floorcraft, intention, technique, vocabulary, etc. – that everything else suffers.

I think “musician” got sidetracked to include all musicians. My original reference was to musicians who play in tango or salsa bands. Call them professional tango or salsa music players if you will. A lot of them will dance but at some low intermediate level at best. Their musicality is no better than the next. Often absent. Honestly off top of my head I can’t think of any that can be said to be good musical dancer. I am sure such a unicorn exists but is very uncommon.

I think the last few posts seem to refer to tango dancers who are also musicians not necessarily tango musicians.

I have danced with professional musicians who play in orchestras and other non-tango groups. Also danced with enthusiasts who are very skillful that participate in musical groups but their full time job isn’t playing music.

Honestly in my experience I haven’t found correlation between being a musical dancer and a musician.

For instance, several followers have confided in me that one musician here has the best musicality, but they still dislike dancing with him due to his crushing embrace and ultra-limited vocabulary . . . he very skillfully matches utterly boring steps to the music and then drags his follower along. I avoid dancing near him due to his oblivious floorcraft (he literally closes his eyes to "feel the music" or something), and I find it hard to watch him dance due to his horrid posture, crossed lines, and sloppy collection. Tango musicality is nothing if it's oblivious, internal, and inelegant – it counts only if it's felt and seen from the outside, and pleasant to look at and be around.

Good musicality can’t be divorced from at the least some decent dancing ability. A lot of people can feel the music. That doesn’t make them musical dancers if they don’t have skills to express it through dancing. I am conflicted if what you described is really an example of musical dancer. I don’t mind limited vocabulary or someone who will only walk. But the rest of the stuff including dragging follower is not a demonstration of musicality in dancing.

A follower here is a musician with wonderful musicality. She also can't dance anywhere but half a mile from her partner because she never learned to share weight or manage the close embrace. She also can't keep her feet on the floor in a crowd. Quite a few leaders forgive all this because she's not only musical but also young, pretty, good-natured, and able to follow "advanced" moves led almost open . . . but I can't help but see someone who needs 10 times the space of any normal dancer to play air instruments using her heels. Tango musicality is also nothing if it's exaggerated and dangerous – it counts only if it can express the most complicated music with tight, respectful steps.

To me sounds more like she is solo dancer than social dancer :d

I have a sneaking suspicion that the amount of time and energy needed to master all the parts of tango that aren't musicality, plus that required to master being a musician, is such a massive burden that the majority of musician-dancers just don't feel like shouldering it.

let’s reverse that. If someone is extremely musical dancer, we won’t expect him/her to be very good tango musician if he or she starts playing. If playing music well requires good music technique then dancing well musically also requires good foundation and technique.

 

[Rabbit]

let’s reverse that. If someone is extremely musical dancer, we won’t expect him/her to be very good tango musician if he or she starts playing. If playing music well requires good music technique then dancing well musically also requires good foundation and technique.

Exactly, one might say that the dancers are either really good or really bad musicians...

 

[Be Present]

I agree. What do you want from the lesson? My preference is usually for a couple that teaches because the leader can tell me things he feels that maybe the teacher follower can’t see. BUT then you MUST be able to carry this to other partners and to me this is the most frustrating part.

However, i took a private from Eleanora and she could feel if my eyes were looking the wrong way or if my heels were a half inch apart instead of completely together as she led me in close embrace!!

And i took privates from Facundo DeLa Cruz and had a tremendous breakthrough with him. But he’s an excellent instructor. In this case i could not have made the same breakthrough without him leading me, but now I have to transfer it to other partners.

So it can work in many ways for different reasons. You need to click with the teacher’s style and personality, and to communicate back and forth well.

One thing that i am cautious about is going into a new instructor and hearing the old phrase of “you aren’t doing it correctly.” I need to pause and decide if that is true or whether i just learned a different technique. Then u have to decide whether to assimilate a new way or keep the old way outside of the lesson. I wish I would have known in the beginning how many and varied the styles and techniques are and that most of them aren’t wrong. It would have saved me a lot of discouragement.

 

[Be Present]

She gives my partner excellent, hard-won follower tips. She gives me honest feedback on what I do that makes it hard for her to be a follower . . . and that's the single most important thing leaders need.

Yes.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Here I disagree. You CAN learn how to listen, what to listen for, how to translate what you hear to how you move.
That some people don’t do the effort, has mostly to do with focusing too much on the logistics of the steps. And that nobody helped them to learn to listen.

For sure. You most definitely have to learn how to listen. Some folks can approach musicality training analytically (counting beats, phrases, etc.), others intuitively.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I don't think you can do more than describe the basics, and different orchestras. That's 'good enough'. Beyond that you're delving into music rather than dance.

I think you can learn to analyze the music of different orchestras if you're patient and have the time. For the dancer that doesn't have to be too complex but it takes time and a lot of listening. And you need a method. I don't mean analyze the musical score, just where the beats fall (or are absent) and syncopation patterns.

 

[Brummbaer]

I think you can learn to analyze the music of different orchestras if you're patient and have the time. For the dancer that doesn't have to be too complex but it takes time and a lot of listening. And you need a method. I don't mean analyze the musical score, just where the beats fall (or are absent) and syncopation patterns.

I agree. It takes time. Early milonguer@s were immersed in the music of their day. Poor musicality on the dancefloor (we've all been there!) is a learning experience. It's not about putting together a choreography.

Yes, a method can help. Explanation from others helps. But you have to be receptive to learning more. Obviously there's a limited market for in-depth, regular, musicality courses.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

But you have to be receptive to learning more. Obviously there's a limited market for in-depth, regular, musicality courses.

This is true. Also a limited number of people who can explain it well or teach it. I suspect that a part of "good" musicality may be intuitive -- as well as the result of intentional listening.