Milongueros del barrio

[Brummbaer]

Why? I'll always rub salt in this wound. It primarily hurts us, so don't turn the tables.

By all means raise it, but not if you wish for a peaceful evening of dancing at a milonga! Find another 3rd space.

I see here by far more flags than you've listed

I see news of the flag-fetish (other words are used, but I don't think they translate well, or the meaning understood elsewhere in the Anglophone) enveloping some streets in the UK, along with roundabout painting and shouting at hotels, along with their meaning, hasn't yet spread eastwards...

Again, feel free to discuss (not here!), and avoid for a peaceful evening at a milonga. Other 3rd spaces are available...

 

[opendoor]

Agreed, as soon as we see each other, we'll start family therapy. But, family therapy is the hardest discipline!

 

[Brummbaer]

Agreed, as soon as we see each other, we'll start family therapy. But, family therapy is the hardest discipline!

Back to Compadritos and Tango Orillero? (although Tango Orrillero is a good style for some orchestras!)

 

[opendoor]

..and Tango Orillero?

Yes, Danke, because “orillero” is the magic word, and common denominator, we will reach an agreement beyond all injuries. So, let there be flags! And flags are not right-wing extremist for me, right on the contrary!

 

[Bailango]

(My coaches are fans of salon, and that has influenced me the most, despite my preference for a more compact embrace.)

May be this due to lack of consensus definition of what each thing labeled means. No particular style has ever been defined. Someone or instructor comes with a label and then people apply their own interpretations. Like Susanna Miller came up with the “Milonguero” label.

I preface with above because to me you can dance salon in compact embrace. That’s how I was introduced to salon. After dancing apilado with shared axis for many years. Actually in apilado too, it wasn’t always shared axis. But the lean in the upper body that a follower felt when initiating any movement was always there. Call it lean or pressure. Since switching to salon more than a dozen years back, I don’t need to apply pressure with upper body. Though in my experiments many followers preferred it (with salon hold of no shared axis). Even though they couldn’t tell the difference between with or without pressure through upper parts.

I think your instructors equate close hold with a little space as salon embrace?

 

[Bailango]

The idea that you can't be an 'advanced' dancer (whatever that means anyway – technique? musicality? embrace? vocabulary? floorcraft?)

To me other than vocabulary it means advanced in all the rest - good to solid technique, good musicality, comfortable embrace what ever your style may be and to be able to dance with different embraces with a wide range of dance partners, and a good floor craft with ability to dance in any kind of Ronda -chaotic, crowded, wide spaced, etc.

I leave vocabulary out of the equation because it is a personal preference. Irrespective of whether your choice of vocabulary is very wide or very narrow, you need to be able to execute it properly. That is the technique part. For example whether you do a crock screw turn when leading a molinete/giro or not, is a preference thought it is a part of vocabulary

If they are stating that exposure to different styles and influences is necessary in order to develop one's own dance, then I would agree. For me personally, as someone who started tango in London, I absolutely had to travel in order to get that exposure.

London being such a big city and one of the most cosmopolitan, this is surprising to me.

I never attended any festival (local or otherwise), didn’t do any tango traveling, and was going to milonga at rate of many once a month for the first six or seven years. Yet I was exposed to almost all styles and influences, before I traveled and danced.

 

[opendoor]

..leave vocabulary out of the equation because...
..you need to be able to execute it properly. That is the technique part. For example whether you do a crock screw turn when leading a molinete/giro or not, is a preference thought it is a part of vocabulary..

I agree with you that "vocabulary" is a hybrid category. But besides the technical aspect, the musical one is the second ingredient. We use vocabulary to improvise and interpret the music. Music is multifaceted, therefore it also needs various physical forms of expression. Even breathing, embracing, head position, standing still belong to "vocabulary".

 

[TTanguero]

The people responsible for the annoying parts of tango in London go to marathons or festivals a lot. It would be more accurate to call it European tango.

'European capital,' perhaps? I haven't danced in enough of those to judge. Within the UK, it is definitely London specifically.

 

[TTanguero]

London being such a big city and one of the most cosmopolitan, this is surprising to me.

Yeah, I don't have an explanation (though I would note that London tango is significantly less cosmopolitan than London as a whole.)

 

[itwillhappen]

I don't see a fundamental difference between "traveling" for half an hour instead of a quarter of an hour within a metropolitan area, or traveling for two hours instead of one in the countryside. You simply broaden your horizons and might no longer believe in the one "right" tango, and perhaps don't take the local VIP clique quite so seriously anymore.

This also applies to traveling to weekend events, but these have additional advantages if you want to make social connections through tango. Traveling together you'll learn quite quickly and reliably whether you're compatible and whether you can rely on each other, something that can easily be masked at local milongas.

 

[JournalInTime]

I don't see a fundamental difference between "traveling" for half an hour instead of a quarter of an hour within a metropolitan area, or traveling for two hours instead of one in the countryside. You simply broaden your horizons and might no longer believe in the one "right" tango, and perhaps don't take the local VIP clique quite so seriously anymore.

Sure, but in my specific context, "traveling" doesn't mean what you said, really.

There are directions in which going 2 hours from my door would get me to . . . one of the nearer satellite communities of the CMA/greater city in which I live, which might be different, but not different enough to be worth the hassle. (Yes, I know people who commute 2 hours each way for work.) That's partly "Canada is huge," partly "Canada has a famously rough winter that can easily double travel times," and partly "the Montréal area, specifically, has poor roads and closed lanes even at the best of times, as well as unreliable regional rail."

If I want to get out of, say, my country, and go somewhere I won't see people from home or hear mainly English or French around me, I must board a plane that costs much more than a road or rail trip, and then fly for at least 4 1/2 hours and probably for more like 6 1/2 to 7 hours. I'll need a passport and perhaps a visa. I'd formerly have had less strict standards and included, say, Portland, San Francisco, or LA . . . but the recent political situation between Canada and the U.S.A. militates against that.

Globally, something like that is normal – the EU perspective is skewed.

Let's assume, then, that when I am writing here, "tango travel" means getting on a plane in, say, Montréal or Toronto or New York City or LA, and flying for most of a day – at considerable expense – to somewhere like Paris or Berlin. Where, being a North American with very low odds of knowing anybody, I will have to pay for a costly hotel to stay in. (It seems to me that "stay with friends, or even just acquaintances, to save money" is more of a North American value than a European one, but I could be wrong.)

If you count "Getting into a car and driving for a few hours to the next city down the highway," my partner and I have already done that many times. By Canadian standards, that isn't "traveling"; depending on the destination, we'd still be on local health insurance and could take an on-demand CommunAuto rental and just drop it off in the street! By Canadian tango standards, up to half of the people we'd encounter would be people we'd see here. (One time, it was "all the people but this one guy.")

Traveling together you'll learn quite quickly and reliably whether you're compatible and whether you can rely on each other, something that can easily be masked at local milongas.

This is alien to my life, too.

Were I to travel to dance – in the sense above or even just the local sense – it would be with my long-term life and dance partner. I've lived with her, shared wins and losses with her, and traveled with her for years and years, so I know we're compatible and that I can rely on her. I wouldn't need to travel to some tango event to find that out.

Due to us being a couple, if I said to her tomorrow, "I am going to travel abroad with another person to dance with her at this event," I'd put a "long-term partner," "live with her," "rely on her," etc. at risk. Maybe it's just our values, maybe it's Canadian values in general, or maybe it's something else . . . but traveling with someone who could be mistaken for your life partner – as a tango partner could easily be, at least where I live – isn't generally done. It would look like an affair, and most people in my life would certainly treat it as one.

I've had many offers to travel for tango with women who are not my life partner. Some have even offered me a prepaid place that I could've claimed by saying nothing more than "yes." However, by the standards of my relationship, culture, region, and whatnot, having said "yes" would have been the same as telling my partner that I'm off to have a romantic adventure. For people with full-time partners, "tango partner = life partner" is usual here, and those in that situation travel only with their life partner, whether the reason is tango or something else.

So, let's also assume that when I am writing here, "tango travel with a dance partner": means "travel with a life partner."

 

[JournalInTime]

I think your instructors equate close hold with a little space as salon embrace?

Surprisingly, no.

My principal coach favors an embrace more like what you see at the Mundial, with space to show off the entire outfit and body of each dancer from all sides (so, more than "a little"), though also with moments where the dancers are close together. My other influential coach dances like that too . . . to the point that when I dance with his wife, they jokingly remark on how I dance closer to her than he does, and they're married. In both cases, their dance is of the "huge strides, big orbiting turns at arm's length, minimal weight-sharing" variety that wouldn't need much adaptation for a tango show. My principal coach has stories about struggling with students who want to dance strictly closed even in movements that are innately open, and the other coach has outright told me that I am better at dancing consistently close than he is, despite him having 30+ years of training at the knee of some big names in tango.

However, I did start out that way, so my coaches know that I can dance that way, and a lot of their work is helping me adapt salon movements to a closer hold than they, personally, prefer. I also went through a tango nuevo phase, participated in tango escenario choreographies, and so on, so my coaches encourage me not to get too hung up on purity. Both are big on the "breathing embrace" and the idea that transitions from "milonguero" through "salon" to big "nuevo" and "escenario" movements (all in quotes because what the heck do they really mean?) can themselves be expressive elements, done right.

So, I have a hybrid style that already has elements found all over and also outside my community. Visiting teachers rarely show me anything I've never seen before. More often, they remind me of things I saw one time and didn't incorporate into my style. That's still useful, because many things are worth retrying after X years of work and (hopefully) improvement.

 

[TTanguero]

traveling with someone who could be mistaken for your life partner – as a tango partner could easily be, at least where I live – isn't generally done. It would look like an affair, and most people in my life would certainly treat it as one

That's interesting. I'd say the attitude you describe is the norm outside of tango, but it seems to me a very common experience within tango and nobody would think anything of it.

I've gone away for many tango weekends with female friends. I've twice rented a two-bedroom apartment in Buenos Aires and had two different female friends come and stay for a couple of weeks at a time. I've done this both while within a relationship and while single.

 

[JournalInTime]

That's interesting. I'd say the attitude you describe is the norm outside of tango, but it seems to me a very common experience within tango and nobody would think anything of it.

That might be something specific to people who travel for tango, making it an interesting sub-discussion for this thread!

I would suggest that people who mostly stay at home in the broad sense – that is, they don't travel much, and largely live out their lives within the community of a region (canton, province, state, etc.), municipality (city, town, village, or hamlet), or even quarter or neighborhood – tend to be homebodies in the traditional sense, with everything that tradition implies for more conservative attitudes toward relationships. So, it's possible that, specifically within tango, now, people who mostly dance local regard tango as a "couples activity." They might adopt it as such or meet somebody there and have it become such – but because one or both of them associate it with the idea of forming couples, they might not be terribly convinced that isn't the goal of single people in the community, even if they eminently trust their partner.

In my case, I'm liberal and progressive in every sense. My life partner . . . not so much. She comes from a small town (I come from a mid-sized city), and her parents were conservatives in every sense (mine were liberal academics, and my mum was a bona fide 1960s hippie). Anyway, if only my feelings mattered, I'd accept invitations to travel and lodge with tangueras in the pursuit of tango and only tango. However, while my partner is comfortable with me taking a local class with or attending a local milonga as the de facto "tango date" of someone else, it's of great importance to her that I come home at night, because an overnight would be bad for appearances.

I would say that's just a function of my couple, except that it objectively is not. It describes the majority (in fact, the overwhelming majority) of attitudes among local coupled dancers I know. The only ones who up and go on tango trips where they voyage and room with people who aren't their romantic/life partners, but conceivably could be, are single.

So, this isn't just my couple. It might be regional. I suspect, though, that it's probably more about "travels to dance so often that it is the norm" vs. "doesn't travel to dance."

I've gone away for many tango weekends with female friends. I've twice rented a two-bedroom apartment in Buenos Aires and had two different female friends come and stay for a couple of weeks at a time. I've done this both while within a relationship and while single.

I can just hear what my partner would say if I did that. As I said, I've had offers. These offers were quite plainly non-romantic in nature, in most cases literally being "I need a partner to register, and everything is much cheaper for two, so could you do me a huge favor as an acquaintance? I'll even pick up more than my share, since I'm the one asking." I've floated these past my partner, whose reaction is consistently, "What, is she crazy?" . . . and when she gossips with other stay-local tangueras, they say the same thing.

 

[brujo]

Let's assume, then, that when I am writing here, "tango travel" means getting on a plane in, say, Montréal or Toronto or New York City or LA, and flying for most of a day – at considerable expense – to somewhere like Paris or Berlin. Where, being a North American with very low odds of knowing anybody, I will have to pay for a costly hotel to stay in.

A few folks I know from Portland drive down to the smaller communities nearby as more of a community building exercise. They are great because when you go to the big city from your tiny or nonexistent tango scene you’ll see them and be welcomed in their milongas. So less Toronto but more like driving down to Kingston to support the university big events or stuff in Ottawa / Gatineau or Quebec City. But once those connections are made, people start WhatsApp groups and what not to coordinate transport. There is even “oh, you want to go to the Eugene Milonga on Fridays from Portland check with XXY”.

Very often the folks that travel for two hours or so will stay with friends in the city for a night or two and drive back. Some will even split up the drive. So you drive an hour, park your car at the closer city with a smaller tango community and all go in one car to the huge city an hour up.

At the big Portland event that ended yesterday ( Valentango ). I chatted with a few folks that stayed at homes of people that they only met once or twice before. Folks in the big cities seem pretty open to letting people crash with them. I remember my swing dancing housemate in Toronto had a bunch of folks stay over often for big events and the fusion fest I’m attending even has a housing coordinator trying to match folks to accommodations.