DanceMentor
Administrator
Wow, I was guessing it was more like 4000 pro/am students, or $100,000 additional income per year for the NDCA. Is the NDCA really that small? Only 1000 in a year?
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NDCA registration to be required for Pro/Am students
- Thread starter RiseNFall
- Start date
Purr
Forum Master
This is what I was wondering - how many pro/am students are out there? And at $25 per person, how much revenue is it generating?
Purr
Forum Master
Ok, so I decided to try to answer my own question, by going to the World Pro-Am Dancesport Series website. Right now, it lists 4524 female students and 920 male students. So that's $113,100 from the female students and $23,000 from the male students, or $136,100 total. What exactly is that buying? A computer system? And the salary of someone to key in the data?
DanceMentor
Administrator
I was assuming that you have been in the business for a while and Iikely made a good estimate. I was not assuming you had access to their books.
Update: Purr is better vying for thr DF actuary position.
sorry if it seemed I was saying you represented
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DanceMentor
Administrator
That is good research, and in line with my estimate of 4000. Agreed, it sounds like profit seeking, and as I understand it, the NDCA is for profit (right?), So they can do that.
RiseNFall,
Yes. It certainly could have been totally legit. But with respect to someone keeping track, I do think if the point of registration is for someone to keep track to be able to enforce rules that exist, I think that's a useful thing. It should be useful at Newcomer level. It should be useful if there is some sort of point level used to indicate what events you can compete in and so on.
The whole point of these classifications is to level the competitive playing field. As someone who is not very experienced, I'd still like the idea that I compete against people who aren't really much more experienced. Obivously, I can't check. No one at my studio is going to scrutinize to figure out if someone who looks familiar was around more than a year ago, or really just at a competition 6 months ago. So it would be nice if that was done.
Whether the fee or system are well organized I can't say. Maybe as some suggest Am's should have been registered individually and pros individually without a separate pro-Am category. But general idea of registering people in some way to keep track of statistics makes sense and the price isn't really outrageous.
Yes. It certainly could have been totally legit. But with respect to someone keeping track, I do think if the point of registration is for someone to keep track to be able to enforce rules that exist, I think that's a useful thing. It should be useful at Newcomer level. It should be useful if there is some sort of point level used to indicate what events you can compete in and so on.
The whole point of these classifications is to level the competitive playing field. As someone who is not very experienced, I'd still like the idea that I compete against people who aren't really much more experienced. Obivously, I can't check. No one at my studio is going to scrutinize to figure out if someone who looks familiar was around more than a year ago, or really just at a competition 6 months ago. So it would be nice if that was done.
Whether the fee or system are well organized I can't say. Maybe as some suggest Am's should have been registered individually and pros individually without a separate pro-Am category. But general idea of registering people in some way to keep track of statistics makes sense and the price isn't really outrageous.
snapdancer
Forum Master
If you know of any NDCA-wide definition of the rules for pro/am students, please let us know where to find them. The rules I found were for amateur couples, not pro/am students.
RiseNFall referred to one here:
https://www.dance-forums.com/thread...uired-for-pro-am-students.48182/#post-1113360
"It might have actually been called "Newcomer Bronze", in which case the NDCA definition is for the first year of competing in NDCA comps (within 12 months of the first NDCA competition). Some competitions define it more restrictively."
This is a definition-- but presumably one is only supposed to enter Newcomer Bronze if they meet the definition of "Newcomer".
I danced in "Newcomer" with my pro at the Crystal Ball near Chicago and will be in the Harvest Moon near Chicago.
I have no idea if there are any other rules.
https://www.dance-forums.com/thread...uired-for-pro-am-students.48182/#post-1113360
"It might have actually been called "Newcomer Bronze", in which case the NDCA definition is for the first year of competing in NDCA comps (within 12 months of the first NDCA competition). Some competitions define it more restrictively."
This is a definition-- but presumably one is only supposed to enter Newcomer Bronze if they meet the definition of "Newcomer".
I danced in "Newcomer" with my pro at the Crystal Ball near Chicago and will be in the Harvest Moon near Chicago.
I have no idea if there are any other rules.
I found this:
https://ndca.org/pdf/2018 July - Compiled Rule Book Master.pdf
I don't know if it's NDCA wide, but it seems to be.
Page 4 line 40 begins the definition of and restrictions on pro-am dancing. (You can't for example take any money to teach dancing. NCDA can fine any dancer who dances as pro-am but is found to be teaching on the side. )
Page 6 line 50 starts some rules. Among other things, it defines how long one can compete Newcomer, says the events are restricted to closed, recommends that if you previously one a particular level (pre-bronze) you can't enter that level again, at that competition (provided it had a semi-final), advises 1st place winners not dance that same dance at that same level again, and sets age levels.
Some of this is only advice, but no organizer could follow the advice if the organization doesn't keep track which competitions a pro/am student entered and what they won.
pg 27 lines 26-29 addresses registration of pro/am dancers.
There are other periodic mentions of pro/am rules.
snapdancer
Forum Master
Actually page 4 line 45 says "does not teach Ballroom dance under any circumstances". That could include teaching a few social steps for free at a family reunion. (Practically speaking you wouldn't be caught.) Page 5 describes sanctions for violations, which would be ineligibility for the pro/am student dancer, but fines could be applied to the professional partner.
An individual organizer of a particular annual event could certainly keep track of what happened at his own event. But since it's not a rule, it has no real effect. The only thing I've seen that the database could help enforce is the eligibility to dance Newcomer.
As a newcomer, I think it's worth $25 to ensure newcomer competitions are fair. Since the registration is new, I guess it won't apply while I'm a newcomer. But that's ok. I still would prefer the idea that the status is somehow monitored. I think potential future newcomers will feel the same way. I'm sure they wouldn't want me lingering around pretending to be a newcomer for 3 years and getting prizes they might wish they could get.
It's not entirely true that the existance of the database only affects newcomer status. It does under the present rules. But once they establish the database, they could change the guidelines to a rules, broaden the rule about people who win and it would be possible for competitions to enforce the rule that if a pro-am student has already won a particular level/dance and so on, they need to move on. Right now, it doesn't make sense to have a true rule that can't be enforced. There is a chicken an egg thing.
I know as a Pro-Am student, I'd like a level playing field. I know I can't personally monitor. My teachers compete in more dances and so see more students. So they might develop suspicious but even they can't monitor. Without registration, there is no way to enforce broader rules. That may be why they don't exist; it's possible some people want them.
I'm new to the sport. I'm also pro-Am and probably always will be. I know I'd like broader rules, that are enforceable. To some extent, the situation right now is almost like saying "Who cares if Pro-Am competitions are fair?" Because the system does little to ensure they are.
It's not entirely true that the existance of the database only affects newcomer status. It does under the present rules. But once they establish the database, they could change the guidelines to a rules, broaden the rule about people who win and it would be possible for competitions to enforce the rule that if a pro-am student has already won a particular level/dance and so on, they need to move on. Right now, it doesn't make sense to have a true rule that can't be enforced. There is a chicken an egg thing.
I know as a Pro-Am student, I'd like a level playing field. I know I can't personally monitor. My teachers compete in more dances and so see more students. So they might develop suspicious but even they can't monitor. Without registration, there is no way to enforce broader rules. That may be why they don't exist; it's possible some people want them.
I'm new to the sport. I'm also pro-Am and probably always will be. I know I'd like broader rules, that are enforceable. To some extent, the situation right now is almost like saying "Who cares if Pro-Am competitions are fair?" Because the system does little to ensure they are.
snapdancer
Forum Master
I did not see an exception for newcomers. And for the monitoring system to be effective at enforcing the one-year rule, newcomers would have to be registered.
You do have a good point. The announcement did contain the word "development". Will be interesting to see how long "development" takes.
Oh, I thought it started slightly in the future? I did my first compete at the Crystal Ball near Chicago in early summer. The registration is required to enter events in 2019. So, the rule doesn't cover about 1/2 the time I'm eligible for newcomer.
But for all practical purposes, that would be 100% of the time I qualify. I tutor kids. It's mostly online schedule won't permit me to do a far away event during heavy "tutoring" periods. I really can't take time off to travel and stay over night just before Thanksgiving, so Ohio Star Ball is out. (It would be sort of insane to do that as newcomer anyway. OTOH, some people might think it was fun. )
But for all practical purposes, that would be 100% of the time I qualify. I tutor kids. It's mostly online schedule won't permit me to do a far away event during heavy "tutoring" periods. I really can't take time off to travel and stay over night just before Thanksgiving, so Ohio Star Ball is out. (It would be sort of insane to do that as newcomer anyway. OTOH, some people might think it was fun.
)Regarding development, IMO (which will have exacty zero weight), they really need to collect data and play around with it first before they start establishing exact rules (it would be a bear, but grabbing past data would be a start). Otherwise there will likely be some unexpected surprising and nonsensical results if there are quirks that aren't captured or anticipated by the proposed formulas.
So, I realize I am an extreme outlier and exception here, but I danced (mostly socially and Showcases, but a couple scattered comps too) for over a decade before I started in NDCA competitions. And I'm starting at the bottom, and this is technically a new style for me (international vs. American). So even if someone doesn't necessarily *look* like what you would expect from a Newcomer or Pre-Bronze, doesn't mean they aren't one unless there's also going to be a "how many years of any ballroom dance experience do you have" reporting component. In other words, no system will be perfect.
So, I realize I am an extreme outlier and exception here, but I danced (mostly socially and Showcases, but a couple scattered comps too) for over a decade before I started in NDCA competitions. And I'm starting at the bottom, and this is technically a new style for me (international vs. American). So even if someone doesn't necessarily *look* like what you would expect from a Newcomer or Pre-Bronze, doesn't mean they aren't one unless there's also going to be a "how many years of any ballroom dance experience do you have" reporting component. In other words, no system will be perfect.
BTW, just in case my prior post was misleading, I agree with this statement and I am in favor of some sort of tracking system, if nothing else to get a better handle on the overall picture of the comp scene. As someone whose job is essentially data analysis, it's kind of hard to take a lot of the hoopla and results with more than a grain of salt sometimes knowing how wonky the whole current set-up is.