New USAD Rules Eliminate "Novice Exception?"
- Thread starter Indiana_Jay
- Start date
skwiggy
Well-Known Member
I didn't even know that the rules were changing until I read this thread. I still have a ton of questions, and it seems like others do too. It would be great if a representative from USA Dance could post an explanation of the new rules, including the transition from the old ones, so that we can all be clear on them.
Chris Stratton
New Member
But will they track points under theres rules from participation at NDCA comps?
As for the retroactivity - ordinarily I'd suspect that no one would be dropped below their current proficiency level, and everyone would reset to zero within their current level. But the sum of partner's points thing is a problem. Could declare that someone currently inelgible for a level has the threshold points from that level as a starting point.
Are points per-level, or cumulative over a career? And what about when youth turn adult, how many points do they transfer with?
As for the retroactivity - ordinarily I'd suspect that no one would be dropped below their current proficiency level, and everyone would reset to zero within their current level. But the sum of partner's points thing is a problem. Could declare that someone currently inelgible for a level has the threshold points from that level as a starting point.
Are points per-level, or cumulative over a career? And what about when youth turn adult, how many points do they transfer with?
Egoist
Member
As I understand it this "amnesty" means you can declare whatever you want as your level. So it is possible that you declare yourself one level while your partner declares herself at another level. Presumably all will level out and people will end up at their true level.
Per level. You may have points at two and maybe three different levels. The points at the upper levels, though, count for double or quadruple your lower level. the points for the lower level count for nothing at the upper level.
Under the new system you, as an individual, earn one point for each couple you place above up to and including a semi final; for preliminary rounds, up to and including the quarter final, you receive one point for each round from which you advance.
Since most US comps are rarely more than a semi final, the simple equation is (# of couples who actually dance the event) minus (your final placement) = your proficiency points earned in that style/proficiency combination. If you dance an Adult Novice Smooth event with 12 couples starting, and you finish 8th, you would earn 4 points in Adult Novice Smooth. So would your partner.
If that same event started with 50 couples and was danced in 4 rounds, with 12 couples making the semi and again you finished 4th, you would earn 1 point for advancing from the first round, 1 point for advancing from the quarter, plus 4 points for finishing 8th, for a total of 6 points in the Adult Novice Smooth. Your partner would also receive 6 points.
If you started a comp with 7 couples, and you finished 7th, you would earn 0 points. Similarly, if you started a comp with 50 couples and you did not advance even one round, you would not earn any points. If you only advanced one round, but did not reach the semi-final, you would earn only 1 point for that competition.
The total number of points you can accumulate as a partnership (the sum of the indiviudal members' points) before you can no longer dance a particular proficiency level is 300. Points will be tracked (not may be, will be as of this year's Nationals!) from all USA Dance sanctioned events, all NDCA sanctioned amateur events, and all IDSF-affliated events. With more opportunities to earn points, most couples will accumulate points much more quickly than under the previous system. Therefore, it seemed fair to set the elimination bar much higher. The rules in this section not only allow for annual review of the point level, it is required that the point threshold be re-examined every year. The idea is to allow couples enough time to master a proficiency level before they are excluded from it by favorable results and to acknowledge that some competitions are bigger than others.
Novice has been moved back into the proficiency ladder under this system. This means there is a single, clear ladder to climb. Since no one is required to point into a level, you can choose to dance Novice at any time (provided you are eligible to); you just cannot dance Bronze and Novice or Silver and Novice. If you dance Novice and you want to dance another level, it must be either Gold or PreChamp. But if you are a Bronze level dancer, you may still dance above your proficiency level.
Until Nationals, there is an amnesty period for people to figure out how their points will tend to accumulate and what level they are comfortable at. USA Dance reserves the right to declare your proficiency level for you if you either 1) don't declare anything to the National Registrar before April 8, 2008, or 2) you declare a level that is clearly below what your consistent results over the past couple of years indicate your level to be. In other words, if you've been dancing PreChamp Standard for over a year, don't expect to declare yourself to be a Silver Standard dancer without being challenged.
I'm working on a power point presentation that will be linked from the USA Dance website. It should be done by the end of January, but I'm happy to answer questions both publicly or privately before then. If you want anonymity, just PM your question to me and I'll answer it on the forum for everyone to see (unless it's very personal in nature).
Hope this helps.
Since most US comps are rarely more than a semi final, the simple equation is (# of couples who actually dance the event) minus (your final placement) = your proficiency points earned in that style/proficiency combination. If you dance an Adult Novice Smooth event with 12 couples starting, and you finish 8th, you would earn 4 points in Adult Novice Smooth. So would your partner.
If that same event started with 50 couples and was danced in 4 rounds, with 12 couples making the semi and again you finished 4th, you would earn 1 point for advancing from the first round, 1 point for advancing from the quarter, plus 4 points for finishing 8th, for a total of 6 points in the Adult Novice Smooth. Your partner would also receive 6 points.
If you started a comp with 7 couples, and you finished 7th, you would earn 0 points. Similarly, if you started a comp with 50 couples and you did not advance even one round, you would not earn any points. If you only advanced one round, but did not reach the semi-final, you would earn only 1 point for that competition.
The total number of points you can accumulate as a partnership (the sum of the indiviudal members' points) before you can no longer dance a particular proficiency level is 300. Points will be tracked (not may be, will be as of this year's Nationals!) from all USA Dance sanctioned events, all NDCA sanctioned amateur events, and all IDSF-affliated events. With more opportunities to earn points, most couples will accumulate points much more quickly than under the previous system. Therefore, it seemed fair to set the elimination bar much higher. The rules in this section not only allow for annual review of the point level, it is required that the point threshold be re-examined every year. The idea is to allow couples enough time to master a proficiency level before they are excluded from it by favorable results and to acknowledge that some competitions are bigger than others.
Novice has been moved back into the proficiency ladder under this system. This means there is a single, clear ladder to climb. Since no one is required to point into a level, you can choose to dance Novice at any time (provided you are eligible to); you just cannot dance Bronze and Novice or Silver and Novice. If you dance Novice and you want to dance another level, it must be either Gold or PreChamp. But if you are a Bronze level dancer, you may still dance above your proficiency level.
Until Nationals, there is an amnesty period for people to figure out how their points will tend to accumulate and what level they are comfortable at. USA Dance reserves the right to declare your proficiency level for you if you either 1) don't declare anything to the National Registrar before April 8, 2008, or 2) you declare a level that is clearly below what your consistent results over the past couple of years indicate your level to be. In other words, if you've been dancing PreChamp Standard for over a year, don't expect to declare yourself to be a Silver Standard dancer without being challenged.
I'm working on a power point presentation that will be linked from the USA Dance website. It should be done by the end of January, but I'm happy to answer questions both publicly or privately before then. If you want anonymity, just PM your question to me and I'll answer it on the forum for everyone to see (unless it's very personal in nature).
Hope this helps.
Ithink
Active Member
Ava, thanks so much for the post. It makes things a lot more clear!
Question though: until Nationals, will all the competitions until then not be awarding any points under the old system? I guess it doesn't really matter since people can pretty much declare any reasonable proficiency level come 4/10/08 but still...
Question though: until Nationals, will all the competitions until then not be awarding any points under the old system? I guess it doesn't really matter since people can pretty much declare any reasonable proficiency level come 4/10/08 but still...
Thanks avab for the clarification. There's some interesting effects:
1) this seems to hurt newer dancers since the field may have more experienced competitors
2) assuming that competitors do not travel outside of their region as frequently(assumption broken in #3), level progression is uneven throughout the country. smaller regions with fewer competitors(semifinal or smaller) will have competitors progress faster, while larger regions with more rounds will progress slower. This seems counter intuitive since doing better in a more competitive field suggests higher quality dancing? At Nationals, this will hurt competitors from smaller regions more since they have to dance at higher levels, while the competitors from larger regions are more likely to do better at nationals.
3) if the competitor's goal is to progress faster, their strategy would be to travel to compete in smaller competition(semifinal or smaller). The limiting factors may be income and amount of money the competitors(or their parents) are willing to put into it.
My understanding from attending several USABDA meetings was that the mission was to make competitive dancing as accessible as possible. ASAIK this was the reason for the no-costume rule before a certain level. This new point system seems to promote higher spending, and makes it harder for newer dancers to compete on a "even" playing field. I was not at the meetings for these new policy, so I do not know the reasonings behind the new system.
1) this seems to hurt newer dancers since the field may have more experienced competitors
2) assuming that competitors do not travel outside of their region as frequently(assumption broken in #3), level progression is uneven throughout the country. smaller regions with fewer competitors(semifinal or smaller) will have competitors progress faster, while larger regions with more rounds will progress slower. This seems counter intuitive since doing better in a more competitive field suggests higher quality dancing? At Nationals, this will hurt competitors from smaller regions more since they have to dance at higher levels, while the competitors from larger regions are more likely to do better at nationals.
3) if the competitor's goal is to progress faster, their strategy would be to travel to compete in smaller competition(semifinal or smaller). The limiting factors may be income and amount of money the competitors(or their parents) are willing to put into it.
My understanding from attending several USABDA meetings was that the mission was to make competitive dancing as accessible as possible. ASAIK this was the reason for the no-costume rule before a certain level. This new point system seems to promote higher spending, and makes it harder for newer dancers to compete on a "even" playing field. I was not at the meetings for these new policy, so I do not know the reasonings behind the new system.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Because the new system is still place out and not place in, progression as a dancer is not limited by the progression of your point totals.
Therefore there is no need to travel in order to gain points, though there still may be a need to travel in order to gain experience.
The potential unevenness you identified is why it takes 300 points to be excluded from a level.
If you normally attend comps which are small, you will accumulate fewer points by dancing in them. If there are usually 4 or fewer couples in your event, the most you can earn in a single event is 3 points. The same level couple dancing where the field is larger will most likely have a result with similar point levels. Couples who regularly win in small comps may not do so in larger comps. Couples who regularly win at either will point out in similar time frames. Couples who are better dancers will regularly place higher, earn more points, and be pointed out more quickly than couples who are just beginning, or who have really not mastered the proficiency level yet. How does this 'hurt' newer dancers? It gives them plenty of time to work at that level before being required to move up. Remember, there is no prohibition from moving up at anytime you feel ready to do so.
If you normally attend comps which are small, you will accumulate fewer points by dancing in them. If there are usually 4 or fewer couples in your event, the most you can earn in a single event is 3 points. The same level couple dancing where the field is larger will most likely have a result with similar point levels. Couples who regularly win in small comps may not do so in larger comps. Couples who regularly win at either will point out in similar time frames. Couples who are better dancers will regularly place higher, earn more points, and be pointed out more quickly than couples who are just beginning, or who have really not mastered the proficiency level yet. How does this 'hurt' newer dancers? It gives them plenty of time to work at that level before being required to move up. Remember, there is no prohibition from moving up at anytime you feel ready to do so.
Egoist
Member
Challenge on what basis?
IOW, your level is determined by your points unless USA Dance "feels" differently. How "objective"!
Why not make a conversion system or make actual criteria on what your "new" level ought to be?
Chris Stratton
New Member
By resetting the system and switching to one that people may suspect will be slower advancing in some cases, it potentially has them dancing against unfairly experienced competition longer.
An interesting question would be if there are any situations in which the new system will be slower advancing that the old. Say you (in the role of the competition to these newer dancers) start from zero in a level and win five times with a minimal semifinal, which would have placed you out under the old system. Are you placed out now? If not, how many points do you have?
skwiggy
Well-Known Member
Are points earned at Nationals 2008 under the new system or old system? So does the switchover happen before, during, or after Nationals?
Can competitors choose which level to declare, or must it be based on proficiency under the old system?
Do points earned at a given level in the old system translate at all, or does everyone start from 0 at their declared level?
Are points earned for placement in a semi final?
Are points earned for placement in a final when no semi final was danced?
What do they mean by the "amnesty" period between 2/1/08 and 4/10/08? Does that mean that points will not be earned during that time frame?
Can competitors choose which level to declare, or must it be based on proficiency under the old system?
Do points earned at a given level in the old system translate at all, or does everyone start from 0 at their declared level?
Are points earned for placement in a semi final?
Are points earned for placement in a final when no semi final was danced?
What do they mean by the "amnesty" period between 2/1/08 and 4/10/08? Does that mean that points will not be earned during that time frame?