New USAD Rules Eliminate "Novice Exception?"

No, not objective. The assumption is that most people who are dancing are basically honest, and not interested in sandbagging a competition just so they can say that they are winners. However, if you try to radically change your level, expect that the National Registrar will ask you why? Do you have any reasonable explanation why you shouldn't continue to dance at the same level you've been dancing? This is not really a change to the rules. Anyone can petition for proficiency reduction, but he/she would have to have good, understandable reasons for such a reduction to be granted. That is the same level of 'objectivity'.

Thanks for the response, avab.

I still see a flaw in the argument. Honest people can disagree amongst themselves! There is too much left to interpretation.

For example, if I won Nationals at Novice last year which, AFAIK, placed me out of Novice under the soon-to-be-old system, what prevents me from declaring myself Novice? I could honestly believe that I belong there.
 
Ava (or whoever may be able to investigate) - there is a link to the new rulebook prominently displayed in the "Dancesport" section of the USA Dance website, but it's a broken link.
 
Skwiggy,

If you wait to point out to move up, and there are no comps with semis that you dance, it would take a long time to move up, yes. But there is no restriction against moving up before you point out.

Research into creating the scenarios I mentioned earlier showed that most couples dance around 8-10 comps/year, although some dance significantly more. Add in the NDCA comps that many couples dance, and that number goes up for a significant portion of the competitive membership. While the 300 point threshold may seem difficult to reach, most of the couples I looked at would have pointed out in between 10 - 16 months at any given proficiency level. That seemed like a good time frame, neither pushing couples up too quickly nor holding them back too long.
 
Elizabeth & Ithink,

Points go across all age categories, without degradation. The old system stated that Preteens could dance down one level when they aged into Junior. The new system states that what ever your level is at Preteen, that's your level at Junior, at Youth, at Adult, etc.

This means that a Youth competitor who is only eligible for Championship Latin will only be eligible for Championship Latin in Adult, Senior I, Senior II, and Senior III. Same for a Preteen I competitor as he/she moves into Preteen II.

Hope that's clear.
 
Swiggy,

The twice limit would be because of the size of the competitions at Nationals. If you won twice, you've accumulated more than 1/4 the points allowed to the partnership; in order to get to Nationals, you've danced at least one other event, and accumulated more points. So if that's all you danced, you got me, you could do Nationals again. But if that's all you danced, your chances of winning at Nationals are slim. Competitors who are working and training and seriously want to win are dancing almost every month, and are accumulating proficiency points along the way.
 
Another Elizabeth,

Why should that intimidate you? Go show them why experience counts more than wild thrashings!

The 'pre-professionals' are already going straight into Championship. The change is not allowing them to also drop down to dance PreChamp and sandbag that competition. This actual helps those that start dancing later, like college age, to be competitive in PreChamp instead of having to dance against the Youth competitors dancing up in age and down in level.
 
Interesting. I think the rules need some editing, though:



Some of the rules are currently contradictory. For example:

4.5.3.1. The eligibility to compete in a classification is determined by the proficiency point sum of the partnership as of the start of a particular competition.

4.5.3.16. The proficiency eligibility of a partnership is determined by the sum of the individual athlete’s proficiency points. A partnership may dance at the lowest level for which they have proficiency points available and for which they are age eligible. They may also dance up in proficiency level, provided that they dance no more than 2 consecutive proficiency levels in a single style and age category.

4.5.3.22. Partnerships are ineligible to dance in proficiency levels where the sum of the individual member’s points is 300 or greater.

Note that in the first paragraph it's the sum of the partnership's points. However, in the second paragraph it's based on the athletes separately (note the singular "individual athlete's"). I think the apostrophe is in the wrong place in the second paragraph. It's probably meant to be "the sum of the individual athletes' proficiency points." That apostrophe makes quite a difference. The third paragraph further compounds this, probably because of an apostrophe error. 300 points makes an individual ineligible, but we have no idea how many points makes a couple ineligible. So, Avab, I think you got the intention right, but according to the rules the 300 is for an individual, not a couple.



Some of the rules are needlessly complex. For example:

4.5.3.2. A partnership is only eligible to compete in a classification if BOTH members still have available proficiency points at that level and are both age-eligible.

4.5.3.17. When an individual athlete has accumulated half (1/2) the points necessary for a partnership to move into a higher proficiency level, he/she is considered to be moved into the higher proficiency level as an individual; the higher proficiency level would now be that athlete’s ‘true proficiency level’. The athlete may continue to dance at the lower proficiency level if he/she is in a partnership that still has available points for the lower proficiency level. However, the individual athlete dancing below his/her true proficiency level will accumulate points at double the earned rated (quadrupled where they would have been doubled previously).

What is the point of the "still have available proficiency points" part of the first paragraph? (I am assuming Avab is right and the rule book is wrong about the 300 points.) If A>300 or B>300, then A+B>300. Or can we earn negative proficiency points? Needless complexity makes rules more confusing.



The only thing I can find about styles or dances is this:

4.5.3.19. Proficiency points are earned in each style of dance separately from all other styles

This brings about some interesting oddities. For example, let's say two couples dance four single-dance bronze events. Let's say all the events start with a quarter-final of 24 couples and all of the semi-finals have 12 couples. Couple A places 12, 12, 12, 12. Couple B places 15, 15, 15, 11. If this had been a multi-dance event, Couple A would be ranked higher. But Couple B earns more proficiency points (which also count toward the first three dances). These oddities are probably going to be rare enough and worth few enough points that they won't matter much, but they do exist.

Much worse is the case of couples in two competitions with different syllabus events. Couple A places 2/12 in both bronze two-dance events at one site. Couple B places 4/12
in each of the four one-dance events at a different site. (Refer to page 7, where it says "one or more dances.") Couple A members each get 20 points towards that style, while Couple B members each get 32 points towards that style. These oddities are far worse.

I really hope I missed something about points recorded by individual dances.



The whole age category/proficiency category thing is hard to read, but I'll take my best short at these.

4.5.3.12. Proficiency points awarded for a result in a particular competitive event will also be awarded in all higher age categories in that style and proficiency level (whether or not the athlete is currently age-eligible for those higher age categories)

4.5.3.13. Proficiency points awarded for a result in a particular competitive event will also be awarded in all lower age categories in the next lower proficiency level.

4.5.3.14. Proficiency points awarded for a result in a particular competitive event will also be awarded in all lower proficiency levels in that style and at all higher age categories at double the rate earned.

Let's take an example of a Junior II couple dancing Junior II Pre-Champ and Youth Pre-Champ Latin. What happens if they earn 75 points in each of those. Their points are (earned from Junior II listed first, Youth second):

Junior II Novice = 150+75=225
Junior II Pre-Champ = 75+0=75
Youth Pre-Champ = 75+75=150
Adult Pre-Champ = 75+75=150

So our Junior II couple is still eligible for Junior II Pre-Champ but is too good for Adult Pre-Champ? Does that make sense to any of you?



I think I have to read more before I even understand why this one is there:

4.5.3.23. An Athlete may petition to be:
b) elevated to a higher classification on the grounds of proficiency and inability to participate in qualifying events. This petition shall be sent to the DanceSport Eligibility Committee Chair for assessment.

Everything I've seen says you can dance up without restriction. However, I haven't found anything else about "qualifying events" that pertains to this yet.



(And in the time I wrote this there were a lot more posts. I'll have to read those.)

Christopher
 
Ava-

My concern is that a couple working the way up is going to accumulate points so fast in the senior levels that they will be disqualified from dancing in an appropriate adult level. I don't think anyone could really dispute the difference between a SrII Novice floor and an Adult Novice floor - but those couples will be racking up the points in their SrII events, which I understand you to say will count equally in SrI and adult. Did you check for this effect in the simulations you ran?

ETA: OK, I see that I misunderstood your statement, looking at the quotes in callen's post. I haven't been able to see the rules for myself due to the broken link I mentioned on the USA Dance website. Where are the rest of you getting to see the actual rules?
 
Avab, thanks for the response! I appreciate the discussion quite a bit, and helps to shine light into the intent of USAD.

Tuanpe,

If we simply went with a system that didn't have a cut-off, the competitors who do have a first round situation could potentially point out by winning a single competition. Is that fair? Or the threshold level for moving up would have to be so high that those dancing in smaller competitions, or styles that attract fewer competitors could never point out. Is that fair?

I agree that it's not fair to point out in one comp. In addition, a large 1st round does not give the "eye time" from judges as like semis or finals. As a result, couple placements may vary drastically(making 1 more/less cut could be 50+ points!). Looking at collegiate competitions on the east coast, the beginner events can easily reach 200+ couples. Perhaps a linear point system here is also not appropriate here, but the cut off is also problematic.

This system is not perfect, but it does try to address leveling the playing field by making it achievable to point out no matter where you dance in similar time frames. Thus dancers who only have access to smaller comps, but dance well will move up the proficiency ladder in similar time frames to those who dance in larger comps. If anything, the larger competitions will add time to the process for those dancers; many people don't start making semis when they first dance at these levels where there are 1 rounds.

This is not a 'point-in' system, but it is designed to work that way for coaches who want to use it that way. A 'point-in' system was floated by a representative group of competitors, and almost universally objected to. The most common reason is that, having put in the time, money and effort to get to a competition over sometimes large distances, being able to dance in only one level was too restrictive.

both these are true, but also seems to be in contradiction with the new system. It seems that time and quality of dancing can interfere with each other. The smaller region may have placed out of lower levels because of time, and be forced to dance at a higher level at Nationals against those from larger regions who did better against more couples(quality?).
 
4.5.3.13. Proficiency points awarded for a result in a particular competitive event will also be awarded in all lower age categories in the next lower proficiency level.

That sure seems to justify Another Elizabeth's concern - if a couple competes Senior I champ, they will quickly become ineligible to compete adult prechamp, whereas excepting the few couples nationally, actual results against the adult field would likely put them in adult prechamp or even novice.

This seems like it would force an even greater separation / choice between adult and senior I than there is now.

And under the present system, the top few senior I couples who shouldn't be in adult prechamp are already dancing adult champ anyway.
 
Hi guys,

I want to do justice to replying to your great insights and questions, but I have to leave for work now. I'll catch up later, I promise!

Thanks!
 
That sure seems to justify Another Elizabeth's concern - if a couple competes Senior I champ, they will quickly become ineligible to compete adult prechamp, whereas excepting the top 2/3 couples nationally, actual results against the adult field would likely put them in adult prechamp or even novice.

This seems like it would force an even greater separation / choice between adult and senior I than there is now.

I don't think it's nearly as bad as that. Off the top of my head I can think of more than that many Senior I couples who do perfectly well in Adult Championship Standard (as-in they would beat up on the Adult Pre-Champ couples with ease).

Without firm data in front of me, I would also question just how many Senior I and Senior II couples would be seriously adversely affected by these rules. The higher level age categories get fewer competitors typically, and the points are going 1:1 to a lower proficiency level. So you could dance for a long time in Senior I Pre-Champ accumulating your 150 or so points and still be eligible for Adult Pre-Champ.

I think Ava and whoever else did it followed a good approach by looking at what would happen to sample couples' levels had they been under this proficiency system previously.

Christopher
 
but the issue is, once they have placed out of SI Pre-Champ, (no matter how slowly) they are also out of Adult Pre-Champ....
 
but the issue is, once they have placed out of SI Pre-Champ, (no matter how slowly) they are also out of Adult Pre-Champ....

No, that is untrue. They place out of Adult Novice. They have to accumulate 150 or so points each in Senior I Championship to place out of Adult Pre-Champ. Look at the sample Junior II couple I posted above along with the rules above the sample.

Christopher
 

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