TTanguero
Forum Master
That would certainly give you a distinctive style.
"The way that guy expressed the violins through his asthma attack – divine!"
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"The way that guy expressed the violins through his asthma attack – divine!"
opendoor
Forum Master
Wait, I'll find your weak point, too
I had rather the heavy arrastres and marcatos of the bando section in mind
TTanguero
Forum Master
I can send you a list if you have enough storage space.Wait, I'll find your weak point, too
opendoor
Forum Master
I know, compagñero!
I skipped to the end after skimming the replies apologies if my thoughts/advices are repeats. However, most of your replies were from the men/leaders.
I feel like the majority of followers at your stage of dancing 2+ years feel as you do. There’s a lot of effort sunk into a dance with very little reward. Not a beginner anymore but not such an amazing natural talent that you attract all the best leaders. It does get better as you become a familiar face.
My local scene is stuck in a place with very few new dancers and many people who have not returned since Covid. I have a pool of 3/4 leaders I enjoy dancing with and 2 promising beginners. There are occasional practicas where we get a visitor. So there are places worse than Essex!
You have to build your social group. Many leaders are quite nice people and will ask you to dance because they know you. Then they will ask you to dance because they like dancing with you (dancing more reinforces good teaching and you become a better dancer).
I’ve noticed that Argentine teachers always ask the older ladies. One woman I knew in her 80s danced with every visiting Maestro. (I lived in a bigger city previously and have attended several festivals over the years). So don’t be afraid to look at dancers far above what you think is your level.
I feel like the majority of followers at your stage of dancing 2+ years feel as you do. There’s a lot of effort sunk into a dance with very little reward. Not a beginner anymore but not such an amazing natural talent that you attract all the best leaders. It does get better as you become a familiar face.
My local scene is stuck in a place with very few new dancers and many people who have not returned since Covid. I have a pool of 3/4 leaders I enjoy dancing with and 2 promising beginners. There are occasional practicas where we get a visitor. So there are places worse than Essex!
You have to build your social group. Many leaders are quite nice people and will ask you to dance because they know you. Then they will ask you to dance because they like dancing with you (dancing more reinforces good teaching and you become a better dancer).
I’ve noticed that Argentine teachers always ask the older ladies. One woman I knew in her 80s danced with every visiting Maestro. (I lived in a bigger city previously and have attended several festivals over the years). So don’t be afraid to look at dancers far above what you think is your level.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I'm just one more leader, but: This. ↑↑↑↑
The Great Unsaid is that while anticipation and compensation – whether that means the follower knowing what's coming and dancing it however poor the lead is, or the leader knowing the questionable habits of the follower and dancing around them – are bad, familiarization is good. If partners are honest with one another, dancing what they feel rather than what they know the other wants, they tend to develop "tango telepathy" where they make things work without thinking hard or at all, and the dance flows. However good the dancer, each person has different body proportions and athletic gifts, and so different resonant frequencies, response times, and resting positions in various body parts. Knowing all those calibrations in advance lets you avoid the "getting to know you" measures at the start of a tango, tangos at the start of a tanda, tandas at the start of an evening, or evenings at the start of a dance friendship. You can jump right in and be expressive!
We all want this. People saying "Dance with as many partners as possible!" aren't wrong, but that's more about being able to dance non-catastrophically with anybody than about dancing at your best. It's about basic technical development, not the artistic/expressive kind. Both matter.
I dance primarily with people I know, because after 12-13 years in the same scene – which started with me accompanying dozens of followers in classes, and has continued with me accompanying many of them in their workshops and private lessons – that's enough tangueras that I can dance well with 20 or 30 different partners throughout the week. That never gets boring! And many of these people invite me . . . which is fine. We're not living in 1935-1955 Buenos Aires, but in the global tango scene of 2025, and followers shouldn't have to sit around, hoping to dance. As a leader, I'm honored when a reasonably good follower says, "I've been watching you, and I think we should dance!", and in fact many of the people with whom I now enjoy expressive "tango telepathy" are these followers – there's a link between extraversion and being able to synch up well with a dance partner.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Going a step further, beyond knowing of someone to connecting on a topic: I'm more likely to ask:
- The women of tech. I enjoy talking tech with them, and they'll get a 2nd or sometimes even a 3rd tanda (generally I just do 1 tanda with a given lady). I have a female good friend from college. When she visits I'll do 3+ tandas with her. My dear wife said about one of my female Tango tech friends "She really likes you." Hmm, I'm still unpacking that one.
- I have had a surprising number followers (maybe 20 total) try to connect with me on political issues! I don't recommend that!
- Followers who say something like "I enjoyed talking with your wife."
- Positive comments on my relationship with my dear wife, like "Your wife is lucky to have a man who dances," or a big smile or little clap when my dear wife and I do a showy move.
- Compliments on my etiquette. Tango Goddess often compliments my dear wife and me on how we dance with other people, and make it clear we are open to dance with others by moving apart.
I don't compare to an Argentine Master, but I like to dance with beginners (regarding dancer above your level).
I'm still not as good at receiver Mirada/Cabeceo! I need to consciously work on that.
JIT thank you for your posts, I enjoy them! For this one, my experience is my best (as in best dancing) dances have been with instructors or people who have danced many years with many different people. Maybe it's in our definition of best? Maybe I think more breadth, and you more depth?
Clay’s Surveys | TangoClay
has an interesting result:
Extraversion 36%
Introversion 64%
That's flipped from the general population in the U.S. I might have thought he made a mistake, but from personal experience I can believe the numbers are right. (Caveats for self selected, not a scientific survey, etc.)
I'm having trouble seeing the mechanism that an extrovert would be able to synch up better -- JIT what are you thoughts on the why for that?
Multiple times I have had someone I thought to be the best follower at an event come up to me afterwards and say something like "Let's dance next time." Maybe it's me missing their Mirada/Cabeceo.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I love dancing with both familiar and new partners – the latter being how I find my future favourite partners.
But like Tango Distance, I'm curious as to why you believe this? I haven't personally seen any difference, and would say that the majority of tango dancers are either absolute introverts or sociable introverts.
There is, at least, another descriptive term - otraverts:
A person who is unable to feel a connection to social groups or collectives.
Or, maybe, just another normal? Enjoy dancing AT, but don't buy-in to the tango scene.
TTanguero
Forum Master
Introverts can definitely feel a connection to social groups. They just have different 'volumes' of expression.
The best definition I've ever seen is that introverts find socializing an expenditure of energy, and need alone time to recharge, while the opposite is true of extroverts.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Four words for a plethora of hints and implications! Sheesh, women and their words...
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Perhaps not so much extraversion as it is specifically the proficiency and willingness to connect with someone — whether it be going straight up to them against the usual social norms and directly asking them to dance, or not creating an initial sense of distance and space (despite entering a close embrace) as so many inexperienced and/or mediocre followers are wont to do.
Without exception, every single one of the best dances I have ever had were with followers who embodied entrega.
Culture definitely plays a role here; I've had far more enjoyable dances with beginners in Serbia and Greece than in London, all because they were a lot more enthusiastic, appreciative, and willing to give it their all despite being equally awkward and hesitant in their movements.
Granted, willingness to connect socially and extraversion are extremely correlated...
But also a spectrum rather than just extreme classifications. And also some cultures (e.g. British) can appear 'introverted', whilst others (e.g. Latin) can appear 'extovert'.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
My experience is that – in general – outgoing people (whom I call "extraverts," so if you disagree with my use of terminology, we're already talking at cross-purposes!) can commit for longer to a steady stream of on-the-spot interactions with strangers. Introverts often commit more deeply to specific individuals on the long and even the short term . . . but that isn't typical of what the milonga has to offer. The milonga is a chaotic place with noise and people, many of those people strangers. In that context, an introvert rapidly gets exhausted ("runs out of spoons"), while an extravert gets even more energized and continues to give 100% to everybody who comes along, including their dance partners, of which they have more because they're outgoing and actively seeking or making invitations. The extravert's social and emotional stamina earns them more tickets in a lottery where the prize is finding the few partners in a mob with whom they will synch up best.
So, the introvert dances a bit but soon gets exhausted with the noise, crowd, stares, bumps, social games, etc. If they don't get lucky and find a compatible partner – and here I'm talking about physical build and athleticism, style and preferred vocabulary, level of skill, how they hear and express music, etc., not some vague feeling of "rightness" or "comfort" – they dance those tandas with people whose primary quality is "does not exhaust or intimidate me as much as other people" rather than anything dance-related. Then they're spent and sit out or go home. Whereas the extravert dances a lot, has plenty of so-so experiences, but by brute force eventually finds partners with whom everything works, whereupon they dance further tandas in synch, with "tango telepathy."
There's clearly a cultural element to it, yes . . . Some cultures are more outgoing by nature, so even their introverts have the staying power to succeed in this lottery. Other cultures are more reserved by nature, so even their extraverts are hesitant to cast a wide net and commit to each tanda with abandon. Why is this? Ask an anthropologist or sociologist or someone like that. It probably has to do with how strong their origin nation's borders are or were, what wars they fought, how many famines they had, how big their cities are, and all that good stuff.
This is somewhat beside the point of whether people who dance with few partners with whom they enjoy "tango telepathy" are better or worse dancers in some arbitrary way than those who dance with many, many partners regardless of connection, learning to broaden their very idea of connection. An extravert who has cast a broad net and found their excellent partners might – by choice and out of no inability to find more partners – opt to dance with just those excellent partners, because it's more pleasurable. An introvert who has been dancing for a long time will eventually experience lots of partners, just over the course of many milongas, and decide that they find switching between a large number of known dancers who no longer demand tiring "getting to know you" time is less exhausting than deep commitment. Any combination is possible.
I prefer to dance with a smaller number of partners with whom I have a compatible physical build, degree of athleticism, style, skill level, musicality, etc. – which is a tall order, I know! – because regardless of my place on the introversion-extraversion spectrum as a person, I'm far, far more technical than emotional as a dancer. I like deep dives into complex steps and musicality that aren't interrupted by somebody being too short-legged, slow, close, far, inexperienced, or whatever to come along for the journey. "Experiencing all the many different ways tango can be danced" isn't a goal for me . . . but I'm probably a boring person, because I can also make hundreds of cocktails but usually drink the same three myself, made to exacting standards, and live in an area with dozens of restaurants but typically frequent a couple of favorites, where I know the staff.
Anyway, I hope that clarifies the "why" behind my earlier statements! For what it might be worth, I'd rate myself as slightly more extraverted than introverted, but from a cultural background that's less outgoing and more reserved (small-city anglo-Canadian) than the one in which I'm currently living (big-city franco-Canadian), so it isn't always obvious that's the case . . . a friend calls me a "shy extravert." And even at a place where I have 30-40 known potential partners, I confess that if I can get away with dancing over and over again with the 4-5 who are very compatible with me technically, I will do that – not because I'm shy or introverted or anything like that, but because I don't get much pleasure out of having to work at connection. I prefer connection to "just work" without effort and to put my energy into musicality and technical expression instead.
So, the introvert dances a bit but soon gets exhausted with the noise, crowd, stares, bumps, social games, etc. If they don't get lucky and find a compatible partner – and here I'm talking about physical build and athleticism, style and preferred vocabulary, level of skill, how they hear and express music, etc., not some vague feeling of "rightness" or "comfort" – they dance those tandas with people whose primary quality is "does not exhaust or intimidate me as much as other people" rather than anything dance-related. Then they're spent and sit out or go home. Whereas the extravert dances a lot, has plenty of so-so experiences, but by brute force eventually finds partners with whom everything works, whereupon they dance further tandas in synch, with "tango telepathy."
There's clearly a cultural element to it, yes . . . Some cultures are more outgoing by nature, so even their introverts have the staying power to succeed in this lottery. Other cultures are more reserved by nature, so even their extraverts are hesitant to cast a wide net and commit to each tanda with abandon. Why is this? Ask an anthropologist or sociologist or someone like that. It probably has to do with how strong their origin nation's borders are or were, what wars they fought, how many famines they had, how big their cities are, and all that good stuff.
This is somewhat beside the point of whether people who dance with few partners with whom they enjoy "tango telepathy" are better or worse dancers in some arbitrary way than those who dance with many, many partners regardless of connection, learning to broaden their very idea of connection. An extravert who has cast a broad net and found their excellent partners might – by choice and out of no inability to find more partners – opt to dance with just those excellent partners, because it's more pleasurable. An introvert who has been dancing for a long time will eventually experience lots of partners, just over the course of many milongas, and decide that they find switching between a large number of known dancers who no longer demand tiring "getting to know you" time is less exhausting than deep commitment. Any combination is possible.
I prefer to dance with a smaller number of partners with whom I have a compatible physical build, degree of athleticism, style, skill level, musicality, etc. – which is a tall order, I know! – because regardless of my place on the introversion-extraversion spectrum as a person, I'm far, far more technical than emotional as a dancer. I like deep dives into complex steps and musicality that aren't interrupted by somebody being too short-legged, slow, close, far, inexperienced, or whatever to come along for the journey. "Experiencing all the many different ways tango can be danced" isn't a goal for me . . . but I'm probably a boring person, because I can also make hundreds of cocktails but usually drink the same three myself, made to exacting standards, and live in an area with dozens of restaurants but typically frequent a couple of favorites, where I know the staff.
Anyway, I hope that clarifies the "why" behind my earlier statements! For what it might be worth, I'd rate myself as slightly more extraverted than introverted, but from a cultural background that's less outgoing and more reserved (small-city anglo-Canadian) than the one in which I'm currently living (big-city franco-Canadian), so it isn't always obvious that's the case . . . a friend calls me a "shy extravert." And even at a place where I have 30-40 known potential partners, I confess that if I can get away with dancing over and over again with the 4-5 who are very compatible with me technically, I will do that – not because I'm shy or introverted or anything like that, but because I don't get much pleasure out of having to work at connection. I prefer connection to "just work" without effort and to put my energy into musicality and technical expression instead.
That sounds very 1935-55 BsAs-ish
Your dancing grows up with others around you. There is familiarity.So not sure which difference you are referring to.