Passion, what are the limits?

[revolution]

It seems half-romantic, half-sexual, and half-I-don't-know-what. (Yes, I know it adds to more than 100%.) You say you love this dance and intend to learn more--and that's great--but please re-examine your motives. If I got a hint of that kind of "passion" on the floor from a guy--and I did, this weekend--it would seriously creep me out. And I'm getting that same feeling, in big, bold neon, from your posts.

hmmm.. my motives.. well tango makes me feel good, I don't exactly know my motives for tango. I enjoy my emotional expression in the dance and the fact that you can only dance how you dance "honestly". I also enjoy the connection and intimacy. What I displike about it is how much work is required to make the dance work, it can be frustrating. I really appreciate you sharing your feelings about my threads.

What is "passion" in tango to you? As far as I understand a big part would be romance, and part of that romance is sexuality. I think what you are reading in my threads that is causing you alarm is the extent of this sexuality in my dancing. And I perfectly understand that, and perhaps at times when I dance my sexuality comes through a little too much, but how can I tell this. It's very subjective, the girls won't tell me. Or will they tell me when they do not like something? Even if I ask a woman about my dancing doubt I will get an honest opinion. So I might as well enjoy what I do for now.

Tango is a challange, and yes sometimes it is hard to contain the emotions I feel, I will try to focus my emotions but remaining elegant. Aslo I have no woman in my life at the moment, because maybe my insecurities are preventing me this at this point. Perhaphs the closness is also why I dance tango. For now I will keep enjoying tango dancing regardless of what people say. And I hope if a partner I dance with does not like something they will speak up or give me a nudge so I get the message.

Too bad we can't dance together Peaches, so you can can tell me thoughts.

 

[revolution]

Freakin' big, huge, electrified-fence limit on the sexual side of things. Not that being aware of, and enjoying, your body and your partner's body and your masculinity and her femininity...but not sexually. In an, there's nothing wrong with enjoying the sheer fact of touch and human contact that comes from a good massage or a good platonic hug. But sexually...skeevy and inappropriate.

Having a hard time understanding that, so every emotion is okay to be expressed, but sexuality? I know I have to be respectful, and maybe I should tone down my sexuality, but there is no way of hiding it. It's also an emotion to be expressed. I have lots more learning to do about tango, this dance is complicated.

 

[Peaches]

Having a hard time understanding that, so every emotion is okay to be expressed, but sexuality? I know I have to be respectful, and maybe I should tone down my sexuality, but there is no way of hiding it. It's also an emotion to be expressed. I have lots more learning to do about tango, this dance is complicated.

No emotion is wrong, but there is a time and a place and a person for all of it.

The only thing I can compare it to is the difference between fun and innocent flirting, and sexual harassment. Flirting is fun so long as I continue to feel it's in good fun, is innocent, and is respectful. When it crosses that invisible line, though, and I start feeling like the guy is commenting about other things...that's when I become uncomfortable. Not much help, I know. Much like pornography, it's an "I know it when I [feel] it" sort of deal. A guy can say, "You look beautiful" in one way that makes it nice compliment, and in another way that makes it scary.

Dancing is much the same. Emotion, passion, whatever. Connecting on a dancing/musical level is one thing. "Being transported," even, to get really hokey about it, is fine. Sensual is good--I would absolutely consider AT to be a very sensual dance. But it's not about S.E.X. I don't want to get the impression that some guy is enjoying the feel of my boobs--that crosses lines. I don't want to get the impression that some guy is taking the closeness of the embrace, and the emotions at the time, as some sort of romantic fantasy. I want it to be about the dancing.

 

[Peaches]

hmmm.. my motives.. well tango makes me feel good, I don't exactly know my motives for tango. I enjoy my emotional expression in the dance and the fact that you can only dance how you dance "honestly". I also enjoy the connection and intimacy. What I displike about it is how much work is required to make the dance work, it can be frustrating. I really appreciate you sharing your feelings about my threads.

What is "passion" in tango to you? As far as I understand a big part would be romance, and part of that romance is sexuality. I think what you are reading in my threads that is causing you alarm is the extent of this sexuality in my dancing. And I perfectly understand that, and perhaps at times when I dance my sexuality comes through a little too much, but how can I tell this. It's very subjective, the girls won't tell me. Or will they tell me when they do not like something? Even if I ask a woman about my dancing doubt I will get an honest opinion. So I might as well enjoy what I do for now.

Tango is a challange, and yes sometimes it is hard to contain the emotions I feel, I will try to focus my emotions but remaining elegant. Aslo I have no woman in my life at the moment, because maybe my insecurities are preventing me this at this point. Perhaphs the closness is also why I dance tango. For now I will keep enjoying tango dancing regardless of what people say. And I hope if a partner I dance with does not like something they will speak up or give me a nudge so I get the message.

Too bad we can't dance together Peaches, so you can can tell me thoughts.

I don't know what passion in AT is for me. I don't really think in those terms. I don't even really understand the concept of "passion in AT." At its best, I find AT to be like meditating, or like becoming a physical expression of the music...not like making out.

But what is not a part of my "passion" is romance. And it certainly isn't sexuality (which can be part of, but certainly isn't limited to, romance). Period. I'm married; I save my romance for at home with my husband.

Certainly it's intimate. There's a high degree of trust and acceptance and intimacy involved with letting someone so far into your personal space that you're touching. There's intimacy in feeling another person's heartbeat, of hearing and feeling them breathe, of smelling their skin as they get warm, or mingling sweat. (Yeah, I know, not everyone considers that a bonus. But there's something odd about it in AT that doesn't bother me.) There's intimacy and sensuality in feeling how someone moves, of having their arms around you, of feeling cradled in a good embrace. There's intimacy in losing track of everything except the music and the dance.

But it's not sexual. And "passion," to me, seems to translate to "sexual."

 

[Me]

Revolutions,

Sex, tango, your emotions, your actions, and other people are completely different things. There are ways to sort through these feelings and when you do, you will be much more relaxed with all of that out of the way, and you will enjoy the dance so much more, and so will you partners.

I am only a dancer and don't know how to tell you to sort it out. I do think you have a problem and I hope things get better.

 

[bafonso]

I must agree with Peaches that I am a bit weary about how you are approaching the dance. Just to make it clear, when I said that there are no limits, it is - obviously - in the realm of passion from a mental mindset.

You will find that for a lot of women bailar lo tango is not so much a pasión but just a hobby. You will notice trends in terms of nationalities too - which is quite interesting - and how much they are willing to put into the dance and how much they are comfortable with a more masculine approach to the dance. This has to do with culture and personal preferences, personality, etc. It is up to your sensibility to *slowly* find this out for each person you dance with. Most north americans aren't even comfortable with dancing close to start of with (big personal space is king here!), let alone a more intimate and flirtatious dance (flirt it NOT king in america). Do not creep people out or you will ruin your chances of dancing with anyone in the future.

Also, I must stress that while you may want to live the music passionately, you should never cross the boundary of utmost respect by everyone you dance with. It is your responsibility to make sure the person you are dancing with is enjoying it and not tolerating it.

As a final note, you can have a dance infinitely intimate in a more open embrace. Your bodies are not full-on touching or in contact but your souls and energy are. Probably the biggest fallacy in tango imho...

ps: man I love Caló!

 

[Captain Jep]

I must agree with Peaches that I am a bit weary about how you are approaching the dance. Just to make it clear, when I said that there are no limits, it is - obviously - in the realm of passion from a mental mindset....

Yes, I'd echo bafonso in this. Obviously knowing what is "appropriate" is a big thing for you, but I think many of us have already tried to answer that question for you. It doesnt matter how many different ways you ask the question, you'll get much the same answers!

I sense (though correct me if Im wrong) that you are quite lonely at the moment, and feeling quite vulnerable. You've found this dance that offers you "intimacy" and "closeness". You want to fall in love with it, but you are not sure whether it will love you back. Or love you in the way you want to be loved : with passion and energy.

Believe me, you need to change your thinking. If that's the way you're thinking, tango is not the answer. It wont fill the hole. You need to do that off the dance floor. Of course easier said than done . However, when you feel that way, my advice is : regard it as a hobby, a way to see your friends, whatever, but dont invest as much emotional energy into the dance itself.

OK I've said enough - I feel like Im becoming a bit of a cliche monster - so Im going to stop there

 

[revolution]

I sense (though correct me if Im wrong) that you are quite lonely at the moment, and feeling quite vulnerable. You've found this dance that offers you "intimacy" and "closeness". You want to fall in love with it, but you are not sure whether it will love you back. Or love you in the way you want to be loved : with passion and energy.

Believe me, you need to change your thinking. If that's the way you're thinking, tango is not the answer. It wont fill the hole. You need to do that off the dance floor. Of course easier said than done . However, when you feel that way, my advice is : regard it as a hobby, a way to see your friends, whatever, but dont invest as much emotional energy into the dance itself.

Hey Captain Jep,

I think you are onto something here. I do not have an intimate partner at the moment, and perhaps I am using tango as a way to feel that connection and intimacy, which is there during the dance. I will continue to dance tango, but I will approach it without the emotional attachment. I think that’s what it is, a heavy emotional investment into the dance. The lovely thing is that without tango I would have not figured out this lesson. It’s really a lesson in emotions. I will keep tango a hobby, and lighten my heart around it, with no attachments and expectations of receiving something in return from the dance or my partner. It’s almost as if I am using tango as therapy, some of you probably will not want to hear that, but that’s just too bad . Tango is also doing a good job due to its personality revealing characteristics. I love how tango makes me feel masculine\responsible following the milongas, something that I want more of in my everyday life.

Thanks all,
rev

 

[Captain Jep]

Cool. All I'm trying to say it isnt the answer. But there's nothing wrong with using it as therapy (many of us are doing that!)

Perhaps I should edit : "Tango wont fill the hole, but it can paper over the cracks" ....

Have a great Christmas!

 

[revolution]

Perhaps I should edit : "Tango wont fill the hole, but it can paper over the cracks" ....

Have a great Christmas!

Sounds good to me, call it a new beginning.

Merry Christmas!

 

[LoveTango]

Sorry to bring back this old thread. I didn't know what title I would use if I start a new thread, so decided to append to an old one. Hope this is not too far off topic.

A few days ago, when a milonga ended, a men asked me out, basically asked me to go home with him. He knew I was married, but still wanted to find out the possibility. Of course I refused, and felt slightly insulted at the moment, but didn't get angry. I brushed it off my mind, didn't want to put too much thoughts into the issue.

However, today at another milonga, I found myself incapable of exercising cabeceo, which I have being comfortably using to invite and accept dances. I only danced with a few friends, then left. I was afraid that man would treat my invitation to dance as an invitation to something more than a dance.

I felt terrible on my way home. Will I still be able to give as much of myself to the dance as before?

 

[newbie]

The "cafe con leche" thing is part of A.T; he will ask other ladies, you will refuse other men. Just a matter of practise, after a while you'll do it without even thinking.

 

[bordertangoman]

If you're not arrested then its probably ok

 

[Steve Pastor]

I was afraid that man would treat my invitation to dance as an invitation to something more than a dance.

One way to think about the cabaceo is that it is a way for the man to avoid being shot down publically. In other words He is doing the inviting. The woman rejects by not returning his gaze and looking away.
Now a days in the US and Europe we think of things more in terms of equality between the sexes. There's a less than subtle difference between accepting an invitation and invivting.

As most of us go through life we run into situations that are new to us and we sometimes struggle with how to deal with them. And, we struggle to put them into perspective.

I brushed it off my mind, didn't want to put too much thoughts into the issue.

It's possible that the guy is just a dog. Or maybe he's just gone through some difficult time emotionally. Propositioning a married woman isn't very cool, but it's been happening for a long long time, I'm pretty sure.
Long term you may find that you will adjust to this reality that is new to you.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I found myself incapable of exercising cabeceo, which I have being comfortably using to invite and accept dances. I only danced with a few friends, then left. I was afraid that man would treat my invitation to dance as an invitation to something more than a dance.

I felt terrible on my way home. Will I still be able to give as much of myself to the dance as before?

It sounds like you feel violated. You are responding in a similar way to someone who has been assaulted or narrowly escaped assault. (especially the part about wondering if it will have a bigger impact on something you love and now feel uncomfortable engaging in as you had before)

I think you will get past this... it was your first time back and you were a little gunshy wondering if you were making yourself too vulnerable again.

Try to think of it this way: someone could have propositioned you this way in almost ANY circumstance. You could strike up a conversation with someone in the grocery line.. are you going to stop being friendly because some slimebag took it as an invitation? Or someone you chat with at the doctor's office? If you get dressed up nice and someone propositions you, are you going to start going out in sweats instead of looking good?

I'm not clear on whether this happened with someone you actually danced with or just someone who saw you there. But it doesn't matter. Wearing a short skirt and makeup is not an invitation to be raped, and using cabeceo at the milonga is not an invitation to have sex. Even this guy knows it isn't or he would have actually touched you inappropriately instead of asking in words.

Whether you want to dance with him again is up to you. If not, then using cabeceo with others is not something you should worry about.

If you do want to dance with him again and you're worried about using cabeceo with him specifically, I'd suggest using words the first time. Tell him you would enjoy dancing with him again, but you do NOT want him to get the wrong idea from it. If he propositions you again, then you will not be dancing with him again, but as long as he accepts your refusal for something more, then you will accept his cabeceo and dance invitations.

I would also suggest making a decision about this soon (and before you go out dancing again... certainly before you see HIM again) Facing it head-on by either deciding you won't ever dance with him again or by confronting him verbally to make the situation clear, is the best way (IMO) to prevent the incident from taking on any more significance in your mind that might interfere with your full engagement in tango.