Pro/am Requirement to Dance Heats to do Championships

Mr 4 styles said:
S2k and sbrnsmith you need to pick your comps better. Read the rules and if necessary talk to the organizers in person.
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Mr 4, I respect you so much, and you always offer wisdom/intelligent bot mots, but 1) most often, the rules are there are no rules, and 2) it's so much more complicated than "talk to the organizers." I know you know this! /fistbump

Most organizers DO respond well to questions, but these particular organizers organize multiple events (with a Grand Big Daddy Organizer), they had a long-term relationship with what'sherface, her pro was on the competitive circuit, and she danced a bajillion heats. Looking back*, the writing was all over the wall.

Thankfully, I'm not seeing the level of "politics" in am-am that I experienced in pro-am. I mean, I've seen politics, but thanks to USA Dance rules it's harder (in the open levels) for sandbagging to occur.


*it's so comical that all these years later THIS experience still rankles. I don't think about it at all unless something (like this thread) brings it all back. And she's a lovely human being, too. She is. And she's a gorgeous dancer who deserves her accolades. ...well, except for the one I still think of as mine. ;):hilarious:
 
sbrnsmith said:
I guess my point was - do organizers prefer the dancers that enter a large number of heats, because they help pay for the cost of the comp? Because, let's be real- a competitor entering just scholarship brings in $85 to the comp- far different than the competitor who pays $5000 to dance several heats.
Just to clarify- this is NOT me saying one is better than the other, or endorsing either option.
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*sigh* Did ANYONE say they thought requiring one round of single dances was too much, and people should be allowed to enter the scholarship only? No. But two rounds (ie 10 Rhythm/Latin/Standard, 8 Smooth) to do a multi-dance is substantially more money and could be the difference between someone dancing two styles or picking only one, or skipping a comp entirely. Throw in requiring packages people don't need or want, and the organizer may be running into some basic econ problems: sure, the organizer likes having Betty Bigbucks and Molly Millionaire come and spend $5000 dancing 100 heats (or twice that). It's in the organizer's interest to appeal to those dancers. The problem is, even in pro-am, there are not a lot of people with that kind of disposable income and there are lots and lots of ballroom competitions. There is a much bigger subset of people in the middle, who might come in and do a round or two of one or two styles but aren't going to stay the whole weekend, and there are newbies pros would really like to see start doing comps on a regular basis were they aren't yet really aware how much ballroom tends to cost. The IMMEDIATE return from Betty Bigbucks looks great, but as Maggie Middleclass starts to have to pick and choose and drop competitions where they're forced to spend extra just to show up and Nancy Newbie sees tiny heats and Betty winning by volume more than anything, they may look at comps clearly catering to the deep pockets and go "Nope, not today." Nancy Newbie can even decide this isn't worth it if she can't afford to compete with Betty Bigbucks and that means not just the organizer but the pro loses out.

Which may just mean it's headed for a market correction. Too many comps for too few dancers, so either prices need to come down, or organizers need to consider if the 5% of dancers who can afford to drop five or ten thousand dollars to dance for three days are enough to sustain them as lack of return on increased cost pushes the other 95% of students to college or low-level am (without any perks or glamour but at least it's cheap) or just into hobbies with a better figurative ROI.
 
s2k said:
Six years later I'm still pissed that I, then a true bronze level dancer, lost a closed bronze scholarship to a woman who later won the open gold scholarship. And no one felt any shame about that level of dancing down - not get, not her pro, not the organizers. Even DanceBeat had nothing but positive things to say about her wins.
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I have to say...that does truly blow my mind...I cannot even fathom that being allowed...and I have seen plenty, and been to lots of places, but I have never seen that.
 
Message me too. I'm still surprised. If we all communicated more we could have more market control. I can tell you that the Cadre of smooth guys and their pros have clamored for and are getting gents only scholarships. Soon comps that don't have them will suffer to an extent
 
I always communicate with the organizers as I mentioned and I get the clarity I need every time. And I'm very detail oriented. Once at emerald I asked to dance against the ladies in single dances. Wayne accommodated me even tho it make semis out of two of the rounds. Now that is service!!
 
Larinda McRaven said:
The majority of them want a successful business, that is true. But they are savvy enough to realize that catering to only one subgroup of clients is dancing on the edge of disaster. The thing is... every sub-groups thinks THEY are the ones being neglected!

Small entry people think they are overlooked in favor or big entry people. Big entry people don't feel they get enough respect. Competing pros think they are overlooked in favor of the pros doing pro-am. Pro-am teachers feel they are ignored once the Pro events come out. Most everyone who doesn't get a top student award feels neglected, because they only did 20 entries and they got last in them and have nothing to show for the weekend. Judges and everyone sitting in the ballroom think they are overlooked when it comes to temperature and they freeze. Competitors think they are ignored because they get hot. No one wants to dance on Wednesday, so however gets that day is suddenly a victim. Every one wants to dance at night because it is special, but if you have to dance in two separate sessions to be able to dance your scholarship suddenly you are being taken advantage of. Some people want to dance warm-ups. Some people want to hit the floor with their feet running and dance a scholarship and then gtfo. People want breakfast later, dinner earlier, organizers to bring food to them in the ballroom because they have to dance through the time their bio rhythms tell them it is time to eat. And the moment they make an arrangement to accommodate one they have pissed off everyone else. EVERY action is a no win to someone.

Can you all please just see that every argument you make for how the organizer is hanging you out to dry is offset on the other side... Organizers do a crazy amount of balancing with regard to all of the complaining. The literally have hundreds of people to make happy , all the while dealing with the hotel's and the NDCA's restrictions.

Again. If you really really feel that organizers care about only one small group of people... that doesn't include you... you are missing the forest for the trees.
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Very well said Larinda. Thank you for putting it all in perspective.

Speaking only for myself- I don't expect any special recognition- if I want to spend x amount of dollars and dance a bunch of heats- that's my thing- no one made me do it. I've learned also to enjoy the moment and not get twisted up over all the small issues- for they are small issues- I'm fortunate to be able to dance and I'm grateful for the opportunity- it has been a long time dream of mine, since I was a kid- to be able to learn dance.
 
Probably the same reason why - despite pro and I telling the organizers every time that we're completely cool with switching levels to have competition (we usually say anything in the open golds and up) - I end up in uncontested single dances while others are uncontested in levels I'd happily switch to. Apparently scheduling is complicated enough without adding variables like those willing to switch levels or age categories.

I do wish that when heat lists were released there would be a program-type listing of who's entered in what level... because most of the time, we don't know we're uncontested until we're out on the floor (or awards, for me, and one time two days later when I checked the marks, because my dance bubble is strong). That way, I (or pro, 'cause I don't like to know who's in my heats) could check the list and switch prior to the comp if appropriate.
 
Larinda McRaven said:
Are we talking NDCA? Because you don't need to go to the organizer. They are busy and they forget things like that. Instead you go right to the registrar. And you don't say "put me anywhere". You need to already have worked out exactly which heats you want moved and exactly to where they are going. And for that you need to buy (or borrow) a program. It is very easy but you actually need to do the majority of the prep work ahead of time and just let the registrar make the data correction in the computer.

If we end up at the some competition sometime I will sit down with you and help show you how to do it.
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Honestly, this just highlights how ridiculous it is that it's 2016 and the only way to see a list of everyone entered in each event is to pay for a paper program day of. There is no conceivable way it'd be that hard to set up compmngr with an event list view online, but being a monopoly provider for NDCA comps there's little to no incentive to add features to the software.
 
Larinda McRaven said:
Are we talking NDCA? Because you don't need to go to the organizer. They are busy and they forget things like that. Instead you go right to the registrar. And you don't say "put me anywhere". You need to already have worked out exactly which heats you want moved and exactly to where they are going. And for that you need to buy (or borrow) a program. It is very easy but you actually need to do the majority of the prep work ahead of time and just let the registrar make the data correction in the computer.

If we end up at the some competition sometime I will sit down with you and help show you how to do it.
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I have done it on occasion. What I am saying though, is I'd like to be able to do it a couple of days in advance and not morning-of once there are programs available.

Plus, it's often pro that is the problem - small fields with combined heats mean the event I'd like to switch to is often happening while he's on the floor with another student, despite me being his only student in my age category... so day of switching means major schedule shuffles (and therefore often a "no"). I'm also trying to do it when I register so that this kind of situation can be avoided.

Dancing uncontested is no fun, but it's sadly happening more and more. At my last comp, I spoke to the registrar several days in advance, and was told that everyone wants competition, but there was nothing they could do. So, uncontested singles for FF :(
 
Larinda McRaven said:
...The week before the event is when the majority of entries come in....And they can't do it a month before because no one else has turned in their entries, so tey hinestly wouldn't have any idea where to put you anyway.
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[Note: I combined a couple of quotes from Larinda]

Guys, what's up with this???? At least some of the organizers give discounts for getting entries in early. I do my best to do my part to get them in by that date, not for the relatively small amount of money, but because I actually like the organizers I know and I figure that they're giving the discount because they really would like the entries in early. I understand that sometimes people really don't know if they can go, but if you are committed to doing the comp give the organizers a break and get the entries in!!!
 
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