Random Secrets of Standard

[Chris Stratton]

Assorted topics remembered during a long weekend of practice, socials, and watching:

- In natural turns your head passes your partner's. In reverse turns it doesn't.

- Except in left-side-outside position, the left shoulder is at home forward and to the left of of the ball of the standing foot.

-Even when you have a so-called right side lead, it is still your heart that faces your partner, not your right shoulder. Place right side lead steps under your right elbow (left elbow for backwards person) while keeping your left shoulder stretched forward past your partner. (Tango: two walks, Foxtrot: three step)

- Place CBMP steps by letting your leg swing across your body without rotating your hip, so that the foot lands almost under the opposite shoulder.

- Rolling through your heel and pushing off as your release your toe is like wearing roller skates - easy gliding movement throughout the foxtrot, and anytime you are down and moving backwards w/o turn in waltz or quickstep.

- Beware the flared-heel shoe. While the heel tip is larger, it is often located under the back edge of the heel as on a latin shoe, rather than under the center of the heel as is normal for standard shoes. This more rearward point makes rolling back off the heel and executing an actual forward heel lead much more difficult.

- When your feet are apart, let your body move some before the trailing foot leaves its spot on the floor to start catching up, for example when stepping out and lowering in promenade.

- in promenade, man stretches forward and left into movement, lady stretches left against the movement and her left back fills out the trailing 'corner' of the couple.

- In reverse CBM your hips turn first (right knee tucks behind left)
- In inline natural CBM your top turns first
- In outside partner natural CBM (CBM + CBMP) your hips feel like they turn first, because they are already turned.

- Maintain a line of linear movement from the downswing of one figure through the upswing of the next, then establish a new direction (exception: quarter turns and closed changes break sideways halfway through the upswing)

- When moving forwards with turn, place two steps then rotate both feet as you arrive on the second step. When moving backwards, place first step with some of the turn, then point the second step in the new direction.

- The lady will be pushed off balance if the feather finish is over or under turned - 3/8 only, it does not work at 1/4 turn like 456 of a waltz reverse can.

- All forward steps in tango are heel leads

- The feet are almost always parallel in promenade, and point inside the direction of motion (across the orientation of partner's feet)

- The lady may turn her head but it must stay on her left side - it can't fall into the space between the partners bodies. Try problematic promenade figures w/o head turn to reinforce the stretch, then add it back in. Experiment to see if a promenade opening feels more dynamic with the head turn about a half step "late" (after the bodies are clearly moving in the new direction)

- In Vw, keep the rise little enough that you can drag the entire inside edge of the closing foot (toe and heel) when moving backwards, and almost do so when moving forwards. Start each measure under turned, make 1/8 turn of the feet into the first step, and place all steps in a line on a single floor board.

Anyone have some more?

 

[and123]

Nothing to add at the moment since my head is spinning from a number of breakthroughs in Standard recently, just.... Wow.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Medira]

I'm saving this to come back to it later, once I've had more lessons and a better understanding of my body and where it needs to be. There's a lot there that makes a lot of sense, but I'm not aware enough yet of where I am and where I need to be...that will come with experience though.

Thanks Chris.

 

[cornutt]

We need to keep this thread going, because I'm getting a little tired of all of the who's-going-to-this-comp and where-do-I-buy-these-shoes threads. So with that in mind, I'll start (keep in mind that I'm an American style dancer and I haven't done much Standard):

- In natural turns your head passes your partner's. In reverse turns it doesn't.

What do you mean by "passing the head" in this context? I think I might know the answer, but I'm not sure.

 

[madmaximus]

Cool thread.

• 
  After All is said and done,
  ARGUABLY Technique, expression, and movement are one and the same.

• 
  When doing turns to the right, the sequence of getting/rotating into position is: feet before knees, knees before hips, hips before torso, torso before the head.
  It is the opposite with turns to the left--head gets in position before topline, before torso, etc...
  
  And extremely vivid example--the Viennese Waltz Natural and Reverse turns.

• 
  It's easier to think of promenade as Promenade Position (the starting point--static), and Promenade Movement (dynamic).
  The first is a head position, the other is a hip and torso position.

• 
  The so-called hip contact/connection is not all hip contact.
  More often than not it will travel up and down the torso for different figures.

• 
  Latin is often symmetric--what you do on the left side, you can do on the right side.
  
  Not so much with standard--Natural turning figures involve different mechanics as Reverse turning figures.

• 
  General guidelines for Standard Topline for well-matched couples,:
  
  --Gent's left, Lady's Right sides:
  ------ Thumb should be at Lady's eye level.
  ------ Elbow should be on the same plane as the back.
  
  --Gent's right, Lady's left sides:
  ------ The shoulders will often be higher than elbows, and the elbows higher than the wrist.
  ------ Elbow should be on the same plane as the front.
  ------ Man's middle finger will often be directly in front of his right nipple.
  

my2cw



m

 

[Chris Stratton]

When doing turns to the right, the sequence of getting/rotating into position is: feet before knees, knees before hips, hips before torso, torso before the head.
It is the opposite with turns to the left--head gets in position before topline, before torso, etc...

And extremely vivid example--the Viennese Waltz Natural and Reverse turns.

I think I may disagree with you there, especially because Vw is notably different than the other dances in this area.

Outside of Vw the feet do not turn into the first step of a turn when moving forward - only the body does (upper or lower depending on direction), but the feet may turn some when moving backwards. Constrastingly, in Vw, the feet and body turn into the first step when moving forwards

The head most often turns at the same time and rate as the feet.

Our major rotational contrast then is between body (hips or shoulders depending on direction) vs the feet and head.

Vw waltz simply has much less rotational contrast, just as it has less rise and fall - it's effectively a blander, more efficient dance so that it can flow smoothly despite the higher step rate.

 

[madmaximus]

I think I may disagree with you there, especially because Vw is notably different than the other dances in this area.

Outside of Vw the feet do not turn into the first step of a turn when moving forward - only the body does (upper or lower depending on direction), but the feet may turn some when moving backwards. Constrastingly, in Vw, the feet and body turn into the first step when moving forwards

The head most often turns at the same time and rate as the feet.

Our major rotational contrast then is between body (hips or shoulders depending on direction) vs the feet and head.

Vw waltz simply has much less rotational contrast, just as it has less rise and fall - it's effectively a blander, more efficient dance so that it can flow smoothly despite the higher step rate.

I do not disagree with this.

On reading my post again, I think my liberal use of "rotation" is a little too metaphoric for others with more exacting or literal sensibilities.

Perhaps I should made clearer in my post that it was the sequence of "body components" that I was describing--in general--more than the exact nature of the movement?


For instance in the man's back half of the VW (4-6), I send out my LF, then as the LF is starting its movement back, my knee bends, and as that's happening, the torso follows and rotates. At just slightly before 5 my head starts to turn from looking against LOD up to the terminus at 6 when the last movement is the head completing the turn to face DC.

(I should note for others reading this thread, that contrary to what Chris described, delaying head rotation is--for me--an artistic and conscious choice to keep the head from looking too busy. It gives the audience something semi-stable to latch onto aside from the frantic movement of the feet and body, and thus gives the illusion of quietness,steadiness, and subtlety).

There now, does that make a little more sense?


m

 

[Chris Stratton]

For instance in the man's back half of the VW (4-6).......At just slightly before 5 my head starts to turn from looking against LOD up to the terminus at 6 when the last movement is the head completing the turn to face DC.

Actually it sounds like your head may be facing DC at least a half beat before mine in the reverse turn. I wouldn't turn my head to DC until I turn my feet there, which is during the first step of the next figure. At the end of the turn my feet are pointed DW (which is to say underturned) and even allowing for the head perhaps being a bit left of the feet, I don't think my head would reach DC until my foot has executed at least some of the "turn into step 1" that is unique to Vw.

 

[flexi]

Generally any foward step travels in a straight line ( some teachers teach one track and some teach two).. anyway most swing actions are always straight, with foot turn at the end of the swing..

And almost ALWAYS, any step taken backward is a curved step,veering inwards..



Also, the feet generally do not work independantly of each other, They are almost always Parallel ( except on inside of turn, those which usually say "pointing") Think skiing... also, knees should match feet in direction ( ouch)

 

[Anna]

I was *just* yelled at in a lesson for taking the first step in a natural (or reverse) turn in straight line forwards. Apparently it's really supposed to be 1/8 to the right (left)? The instructor was someone who knows what he's talking about...so did I misinterpret what he said, or what flexi is saying? I'm confused...

 

[Chris Stratton]

Generally any foward step travels in a straight line ( some teachers teach one track and some teach two).. anyway most swing actions are always straight, with foot turn at the end of the swing..

And almost ALWAYS, any step taken backward is a curved step,veering inwards..

I'd generally agree, though not being completely sure which of the possible meaning of "veering inwards" you intend I'd add the concern that there needs to be a consistency of direction between the forward and backward partner. The backwards step will usually toe inwards, but the degree to which it can curve to land sideways of the forward partner's track (inwards to the turn) is limited by the amount of distance between feet that breathing of the hold can accomdate - beyond that, curve of the backwards partner will force the forwards partner to curve around this "anchor". I think it's fairly rare to see a backwards step that is habitually too straight in direction, but quite common to see one that is too far displaced to the side, meaning the backwards person isn't able to pass over their foot while maintaining a supported posture. Habitual toeing out of this step (instead of in) is also a common problem - but somewhat seperable from the position where the foot lands.

Also, the feet generally do not work independantly of each other, They are almost always Parallel ( except on inside of turn, those which usually say "pointing") Think skiing... also, knees should match feet in direction ( ouch)

Yes - this is quite important. One thing I would add though is that standard ballroom, unlike ballet, does use small amounts of misalignment between feet and knees, as far as I can recall restricted to the situation of the knee inside the foot (ie, that old rubber band between knees feeling). It is certainly dangerous if overdone, but a strong body can do this safely with care - and needs to in order to fully accomodate a partner.

 

[Chris Stratton]

I was *just* yelled at in a lesson for taking the first step in a natural (or reverse) turn in straight line forwards. Apparently it's really supposed to be 1/8 to the right (left)? The instructor was someone who knows what he's talking about

There should not really be any curve to the travel at that point, however the body will be rotating because it probably ended the previous figure underturned compared to the feet, and because these figures feature CBM (body rotation) as the firt commencing action of the coming turn. But this body rotation is superimposed on a comparatively straight line movement.

Many people do find it difficult to seperate body rotation from direction of movement, so the issues often get confused by students, and sometimes by the teachers as well.

The underlying concept of where to place the feet actually is fairly simple though - as you lower you establish a direction of movement, and your feet continue to be placed along a straight line in that direction until you rise again. At the peak of the rise, whatever body rotation has taken place in the meantime helps you establish a new direction, which will endure from downswing to its following upswing. Pick directions when up, continue them when down.

(With the extreme 1/2 turn in viennese waltz compared to the more ordinary 3/8 of the other dances, you end up underturned in feet as well as body at the end of each three steps, and so have to turn everything about 1/8 turn into step one merely to accomplish movement in a straight line, rather than curving off in a series of measures that don't quite make it all the way around)

 

[tacad]

There should not really be any curve to the travel at that point, however the body will be rotating because it probably ended the previous figure underturned compared to the feet, and because these figures feature CBM (body rotation) as the firt commencing action of the coming turn. But this body rotation is superimposed on a comparatively straight line movement.

I wonder if this (my lack of body rotation) is part of the reason I have trouble getting around on the forward turns in Am. Waltz when I insist on traveling in a straight line.

 

[Chris Stratton]

I wonder if this is part of the reason I have trouble getting around on the forward turns in Am. Waltz when I insist on traveling in a straight line.

Depends on what you mean by 'this' - lack of CBM (body rotation) - yes, that could cause problems.

Also, which forward natural turn in american waltz? The closed one equivelent to international? or the open right turn taken from promenade? In the promenade case, it's probably the lady not letting you catch up (as she's on the inside of the turn she moves less) and also perhaps rotating her hips to the right, when in fact they are already as far to the right as the figure will ultimately require in the promenade position where it starts - her hips need to keep their alignment and let you close to her, rather than running away into additional rotation to the right that you won't be able to match.

 

[tacad]

Depends on what you mean by 'this' - lack of CBM (body rotation) - yes, that could cause problems.

Also, which forward natural turn in american waltz? The closed one equivelent to international?

Yes, this one. I'll try it out.

or the open right turn taken from promenade? In the promenade case, it's probably the lady not letting you catch up (as she's on the inside of the turn she moves less) and also perhaps rotating her hips to the right, when in fact they are already as far to the right as the figure will ultimately require in the promenade position where it starts - her hips need to keep their alignment and let you close to her, rather than running away into additional rotation to the right that you won't be able to match.

Hmmm. I don't think I know this one.