Reasons to give up Tango

[Brummbaer]

You can find old men in many milongas. And many followers complain about it too.

And when you're 'old' will you be giving up? Is being 'old' a reason to stop dancing? To stop tango? What about 'old' followers? Should there be separate milongas for the 'old' (maybe there are already)?

The question was asked What's young? What's old?

 

[opendoor]

..Should there be separate milongas for the 'old' ...

My girlfriend thinks it is unfair that she often only has older men to dance with, while I am usually allowed to dance with women who are 30 years younger than me. Many tangueras from our circle of friends think the same way. I believe that the imbalance between the sexes naturally binds older male dancers to tango. In dances with a surplus of men (salsa, bachata, forró, kizomba) it is quite difficult to grow old as a leader.

...What's old?

I often took my daughter along to milongas: phew, there are only old people here, she said. That was 15 years ago

 

[JournalInTime]

And when you're 'old' will you be giving up?

No.

Is being 'old' a reason to stop dancing? To stop tango?

No and no.

Should there be separate milongas for the 'old' (maybe there are already)?

No.

The question was asked What's young?

Younger than me by more than 10 years (so 45 and under).

What's old?

Older than me by more than 10 years (so 65 and older).

—

For me, the issue isn't dancers being older – we all get older, and as my answers indicate, "young" and "old" are moving targets as a result.

For me, the issue is very specifically men who hard-sell their age as a positive to younger, newer women who aren't familiar with the cultural traditions of tango. As was correctly pointed out:

It may idolize them, but they're only found in B.A. (or were). Being "of a certain age" doesn't make you a viejo milonguero, it just makes you viejo.

But as I replied:

Old guys who dance tango are viejo milongueros in the eyes of many people, and that's that. The details of how Argentine tango culture works in Buenos Aires aren't even on the table for 95% of tango dancers.

This apparently isn't a universal problem:

Ah, no one is buying that myth around here.

. . . but it's nonetheless a problem, and it is linked to age. In this case, to people exploiting it, just as other people might exploit looks or wealth.

 

[Brummbaer]

I often took my daughter along to milongas: phew, there are only old people here, she sai

When you're 18, say, even 30 looks old. When you're 60, 80 looks old...

Sadly, maybe part of the 'attraction' for older men is younger women (older, but not wiser - maybe that's an aging problem). And of course, let's not forget the aging solo followers. The key element, as raised in the thread on promoting participation, is that the milonga is not in 1940's Argentine culture where it's the [only] social place to go (until rock 'n roll). If it's perceived as the oldies place, it's not for the young; if it's for the young and fit, for showy moves, lifts, etc., it's not the place for the 'old'. Good tango, however, requires skill with maturity.

One of our milongas was not for younger than 18 (health & safety, liability insurance). Another, probably ignored this, allowed a young family whilst mum & dad had lessons, and they stayed for the milonga. Another brought their child in a pushchair (normally granny provides childcare).

So, I guess if you're going to be the odd one out in age, that's a reason to 'give up' there and move on.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

But you understand that most people don't split that hair, right? Old guys who dance tango are viejo milongueros in the eyes of many people, and that's that. The details of how Argentine tango culture works in Buenos Aires aren't even on the table for 95% of tango dancers.

But that is not splitting hairs. It's quite fundamental, in fact. If what you say is correct, that 95% of the unaware would not even have the concept of the milonguero (old or young). And, in that case, an "old guy" is just an old guy who dances tango. Nothing special about that and unlikely to win him any favors with the ladies.

 

[SierraAlpha]

> in that case, an "old guy" is just an old guy who dances tango. Nothing special about that and unlikely to win him any favors with the ladies.

Let's not forget that many young women find older men attractive. Perhaps tango attracts that part of demographic more.

In other words, perhaps an equilibrium has developed where tango serves (among many other things) as a meeting place for older men interested in younger women and younger women interested in older men.

 

[Rabbit]

In other words, perhaps an equilibrium has developed where tango serves (among many other things) as a meeting place for older men interested in younger women and younger women interested in older men.

I don't think there is much intergenerational dating actually happening. Not for lack of trying on the part of some of the men... that is a reputation that I think we would rather do without.

 

[JournalInTime]

If what you say is correct, that 95% of the unaware would not even have the concept of the milonguero (old or young).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, on the basis of regional variation.

Around here, there are plenty of half-learned, half-remembered, half-baked ideas about the "traditions" of AT, largely originating from teachers cherry-picking the parts they like, ditching the parts they don't like, and then passing along their abridgments to students. So, there are plenty of beginners who have overly specific touchstones of AT on the brain but no context for them. Their understanding of "tradition" is all brothels, old guys who used to be young guys with knives, St. Carlos Gardel, and "What is this 'Montevideo' of which you speak?" It's the myth of sexy tango born and bred in some mythic, dangerous Buenos Aires underworld where old guys were like mafia godfathers who knew how to dance, all somehow exported to the rest of the world untouched.

The whole bit about tango originating from indigenous, African slave, and immigrant European dance is just omitted. So is tango's long tenure in Paris. So is the fact that inasmuch as tango is South American at all, Montevideo was as important to it as Buenos Aires. So is the fact that rich people had more time to dance than poor people. And so is the idea that viejos milongueros were a specific group of people, not just all men old enough that some beginner on another continent can believe they might vaguely remember tango prior to its exposure to ballet, ballroom, etc.

I find it surprising that you guys don't have older men who affect the dress of Gardel in old movie posters, try to act all Old World charming, and call themselves "milongueros." But I guess you don't.

 

[opendoor]

..the unaware would not even have the concept of the milonguero (old or young)..

A "viejo milonguero" is first of all a contemporary witness of the tango craze in the 40s in BsAs. In other words, he was a bad dancer. From a certain point in time on, however, the younger brothers of the first mentioned group also referred to themselves as "viejo milongueros". They were generic "rock 'n' rollers", but they took the chance to promote tango. This group actually could dance! Janis also refers to her peers and to those native milonga visitors in BsAs as "milongueros" or "milongueras" (this time without a qualifying adjective). In this sense, I would also be a milonguero, not a "viejo milonguero", simply an old "milonguero". I actually use "milonguero" according to the terms "salsero", "bachatero", "forrozeiro", "lindyhopper" or "balfolkie", although the correct equivalent would be "tanguero".

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I find it surprising that you guys don't have older men who affect the dress of Gardel in old movie posters, try to act all Old World charming, and call themselves "milongueros." But I guess you don't.

We don't. No. One guy, sort of tried on the Gardel look for a while, still does, I think, but he comes out about once a year. That's about it. The two older gents from B.A., who were around for years and wore a suit, have, unfortunately, passed away recently.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

A "viejo milonguero" is first of all a contemporary witness of the tango craze in the 40s in BsAs. In other words, he was a bad dancer. From a certain point in time on, however, the younger brothers of the first mentioned group also referred to themselves as "viejo milongueros". They were generic "rock 'n' rollers", but they took the chance to promote tango. This group actually could dance! Janis also refers to her peers and to those native milonga visitors in BsAs as "milongueros" or "milongueras" (this time without a qualifying adjective). In this sense, I would also be a milonguero, not a "viejo milonguero", simply an old "milonguero". I actually use "milonguero" according to the terms "salsero", "bachatero", "forrozeiro", "lindyhopper" or "balfolkie", although the correct equivalent would be "tanguero".

It is not equivalent to those terms. For one thing, you cannot call yourself a "milonguero." It's a title applied to someone. Traditionally, it referred to someone who hung out at milongas and danced at milongas all the time. They were habitués. Why you think they were bad dancers is anyone's guess. The only reason we have had "viejos milongueros" is because those guys got OLD. But they were respected because they had been dancing for so many years, most of their lives, in fact, and pretty much defined what "tango salon" was (and continues to be). A "tanguero" is an aficionado of tango music. So there's a difference.

 

[JournalInTime]

For one thing, you cannot call yourself a "milonguero." It's a title applied to someone.

Then there's no hope for me, because one of the older Argentine women in our community constantly calls me un verdadero milonguero – a label I did not want, did not seek out, and don't especially feel suits me – and introduces me to her contemporaries this way. I cannot fathom it, because at my most obsessed pre-pandemic, I might have danced four or five days out of seven, and I never tried to look the look or play the part. So, I guess she's saying I'm a good-for-nothing bar bum.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Was just talking to someone here and came up with the (sort of) equivalent "lounge lizard."
(And that was before I saw your post. We were talking about people in their 90s, and also people who are at dance paces a LOT.)
And since I started...
Not too long ago someone yelled after me as I walked out of the dance place, "Goodbye, old man." (I don't think it was meant as a compliment.) Well, I laughed out loud and still get a cheek busting smile when I think of it. Maybe unrelated to this, there had in the previous weeks been a (smallish) number of young women who had very obviously let me know they wanted to dance with me; such as running onto the dance floor and asking me to dance with them.
Just about everyone guesses my age about a decade lees than it is. But here's the thing... young women want to dance. And I don't think that young men are any more likely to do dance rather than sports than they were decades ago. So, (some) young women look around and see a an older guy who does know how to dance, and doesn't look "creepy," I guess, and they see the younger guys who have youth on their side, but not so much with the dancing.
Now, this was country western very recently. AT has been gone from my life as long as covid. And I'll admit I did not see the same experience with AT. But, my experience tells me that a "well behaved" "uncreepy" older guy who clearly knows what he's doing when he's dancing has that to his advantage. Call him what you will.

 

[Numawan]

I find it surprising that you guys don't have older men who affect the dress of Gardel in old movie posters, try to act all Old World charming, and call themselves "milongueros." But I guess you don't.

No, we don't. We are normal here.

 

[opendoor]

...find it surprising that you guys don't ..affect the dress of Gardel..

Yes, I cannot break free of it. One for showcases, one for salsa and one for my weekly milonga.