bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
..using the muscles that control the foot, inc toes, and legs
Some possibly confusing tango terms
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..using the muscles that control the foot, inc toes, and legs
I believe the more common term is " grounded "; essentially, having the weight on the supporting leg in a controlled position, that will facilitate direction to any given point. Whether the "ball " or " heel " is employed in the action to follow, and also prior to its departure from that "standing " leg, is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
This is an answer given by the late Bill Irvine on this very topic.. when he was asked the Q. he replied ( paraphrased ) I always feel that there are 2 direct forces in action, one is "pulling " me in an upwards direction, and the other is forcing me into the ground .
I think some teachers simply don't know why their students aren't stable and they have no idea how to fix their problems. If it comes naturally for them, they don't know what they are doing differently from you or anyone else. Personally, I don't think teachers should introduce concepts that they don't know how to explain clearly or teach another person to do. Of course, as we know, just because people can dance at the highest level doesn't make them great teachers.
The best guidance I've ever had on stability (and I'll add that the teacher never used the term "into the floor") came from a female teacher who tried to get me to use my pelvic muscles differently. For me, it was especially the ones in the front of my hip bones. She demonstrated that you can be way up on tiptoe with the kness straight and still be stable, and you can also have your standing knee bent with your foot flat and be unstable. The pressure that really grounds you comes from "dropping" the pelvis and relaxing it away from the erect ribcage.
(In fact, I've had two famous female teachers who have very different styles BOTH talk to me about trying to "separate the ribcage from the pelvis.. elongating by stretching them away from one another to achieve simultaneously stability and a lifted, light feeling)
She put my hand on her hips so I could feel the muscles she was talking about and feel what she was doing with them. She tried to get me to do the same with my muscles. Because of various joint problems I have, it took me quite a long time to even begin to implement this strategy while dancing, but it makes a world of difference when I can do it. Oh hell, it took practice before I could even feel the muscles just standing in the living room.
Now for the fine print.... it is EASIER to have those muscles do their job right if my knees are bent and my feet are flat, but it's not required that they be. After all, they're not only different muscles, but they're in an entirely different joint. The problem is habit. My habit when my leg is straight and I'm on my toes is to also lift in my pelvis. Consequently, I always had a light airy feeling when I danced ballet, but I suffered from poor grounding. Even in something as lifted and "up" as ballet, those muscles should not have been lifting and certainly not tensed.
I've never had any other teachers give me any useful guidance about about "grounding". If anything, they all focus on the knees. For many people, bending the knees is only the beginning.. it will help them use their pelvic muscles better, but without specific instruction on what to do with those pelvic muscles, they'll just be dancing with bent knees and only be somewhat more stable.
And another pet peeve... just saying "Be strong in your core" doesn't fix it either. Tell a beginner that, and they're likely to just TENSE their core, which is pretty counterproductive.
Ah.. should have read ahead... this is exactly what my teachers were trying to explain. But for many of us, Irvine's words are not enough... they leave one with the question "HOW do I do that?"
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Ding ding ding! Winner.
Yeah, I get the stable, unable-to-be-knocked-over thing...but HOW?!?!
Mainly I agree with DB and BTM:
Grounded in tango essentially means stability .. using the muscles
that control the foot, inc toes, and legs. I would add that the whole body
and sense of balance need to be engaged. But it has to be comfortably
within your capability so it needs developing away from classes.
This too:
And of course the upward pulling is that description that teachers often describe
as imagining you have a piece of string extending from the top of your head
reaching and pulling upwards. The imagery is a way of trying to get students
to engage their core muscles by using their full height. As we get older
that is an ability we seem to lose and have to find again.
Peaches asks how to be grounded, and it's a very good question
that is so difficult to answer. I'm afraid this doesn't help:
and just loses the teacher credibility with any scientifically knowledgeable student.
I know it's my mantra, but physical fitness is all.
Finding and developing core strength - pilates, yoga, yogalates if you must,
all help. Leg muscle strength, ankles, feet and toes, and core, all need
to work together. Learn too how to separate your pelvis from your upper body
and control the twisting independently.
Teachers don't seem to want to tell people, certainly adults, that there is
no easy way to all this but airy fairy ideas are not the answer.
Grounded in tango essentially means stability .. using the muscles
that control the foot, inc toes, and legs. I would add that the whole body
and sense of balance need to be engaged. But it has to be comfortably
within your capability so it needs developing away from classes.
This too:
But not this which just confuses:
What Bill Irvine "feels" is immaterial, it's what you have to do that's important.
And of course the upward pulling is that description that teachers often describe
as imagining you have a piece of string extending from the top of your head
reaching and pulling upwards. The imagery is a way of trying to get students
to engage their core muscles by using their full height. As we get older
that is an ability we seem to lose and have to find again.
Peaches asks how to be grounded, and it's a very good question
that is so difficult to answer. I'm afraid this doesn't help:
Nor is talk of being able to make yourself weigh heavier, which is physically impossible,
and just loses the teacher credibility with any scientifically knowledgeable student.
I know it's my mantra, but physical fitness is all.
Finding and developing core strength - pilates, yoga, yogalates if you must,
all help. Leg muscle strength, ankles, feet and toes, and core, all need
to work together. Learn too how to separate your pelvis from your upper body
and control the twisting independently.
Teachers don't seem to want to tell people, certainly adults, that there is
no easy way to all this but airy fairy ideas are not the answer.
This is such a long post from Zoopsia, much of which I agree with, I thought
I'd add a man's perspective where appropriate which I hope helps.
to help achieve the separation and engage the muscles in the abdomen.
Although I don't subscribe to "dropping" the pelvis you can rotate it by
effectively dropping your "tailbone" under and if you draw yourself up to
your full height that seems to become its natural position. It always bothers
me a bit to see people, mainly ladies, dancing with their butt stuck out
and their bodies in the shape of an S. It's not good long term for backs.
consciously, they are just there doing their job which I suppose is the point.
It has to be natural, you have to develop them by other ways so they are
available easily, freely when needed, and without conscious effort.
There are other muscles too right on the pelvis so here's something else to try.
My body core strength originally didn't come about because of tango but
because of persistent recurring back pain, spasms, sciatica and the need
to repair the damage caused by work and solve it. Having largely solved it
for normal life, tango proved that wasn't enough.
Back pain returned as did sciatica.
So more exercises were needed but the sciatica still recurred.
I hadn't actually found a way to exercise the muscles on the back of
the pelvis that appeared to be the cause of the problem. But a tango
partner who had natural disassociation (meaning she never had to be
taught it) could rotate her pelvis independently, something most
professional tango teachers can probably do without thinking but I couldn't.
Not because I hadn't the physical ability but because I couldn't control
the necessary muscles. It didn't take long to rectify that - a couple of days
and I was fluent - but wow did it wake up those back pelvic muscles.
Where they were locked up and one always slightly swollen, they were
normal after about 10 days and the sciatica was gone.
The side benefits were and are a significant improvement in the ability
to wind up my body and in the ability to provide intent from the upper
body alone for rotational movements.
Ballet by it's nature is mainly a light and lifted dance.
And I don't get what you mean by a "lifted" pelvis either.
Poor grounding to me usually means instability and that brings us
back to all sorts of inadequate muscle strength and/or control.
because the canyengue style was in evidence at the time (1910 to 1922).
But the knees don't have to be bent, in fact that flattens the cadence of
the walk (sometimes called snake legs), but they do need to be flexed
and not locked straight. That way the leg muscles contribute to the stability
being sought; locking the knees also seems to lock out the ability
to use of most of the leg muscles.
Some people, even longer term dancers, stay locked and find disassociating
very difficult. It's why many dancers want the freedom to move within the embrace.
So it's back to developing all the necessary fundamental physical abilities
away from classes.
I'd add a man's perspective where appropriate which I hope helps.
Well you can't "drop" the pelvis, it is where it is. You can elongate your body
to help achieve the separation and engage the muscles in the abdomen.
Although I don't subscribe to "dropping" the pelvis you can rotate it by
effectively dropping your "tailbone" under and if you draw yourself up to
your full height that seems to become its natural position. It always bothers
me a bit to see people, mainly ladies, dancing with their butt stuck out
and their bodies in the shape of an S. It's not good long term for backs.
I'd have been much happier to have heard described an "engaged" feeling.
Interesting - so I did a test. And yes I can feel them but don't use them
consciously, they are just there doing their job which I suppose is the point.
It has to be natural, you have to develop them by other ways so they are
available easily, freely when needed, and without conscious effort.
There are other muscles too right on the pelvis so here's something else to try.
My body core strength originally didn't come about because of tango but
because of persistent recurring back pain, spasms, sciatica and the need
to repair the damage caused by work and solve it. Having largely solved it
for normal life, tango proved that wasn't enough.
Back pain returned as did sciatica.
So more exercises were needed but the sciatica still recurred.
I hadn't actually found a way to exercise the muscles on the back of
the pelvis that appeared to be the cause of the problem. But a tango
partner who had natural disassociation (meaning she never had to be
taught it) could rotate her pelvis independently, something most
professional tango teachers can probably do without thinking but I couldn't.
Not because I hadn't the physical ability but because I couldn't control
the necessary muscles. It didn't take long to rectify that - a couple of days
and I was fluent - but wow did it wake up those back pelvic muscles.
Where they were locked up and one always slightly swollen, they were
normal after about 10 days and the sciatica was gone.
The side benefits were and are a significant improvement in the ability
to wind up my body and in the ability to provide intent from the upper
body alone for rotational movements.
Not sure ballet comparisons are that relevant I'm afraid.
Ballet by it's nature is mainly a light and lifted dance.
And I don't get what you mean by a "lifted" pelvis either.
Poor grounding to me usually means instability and that brings us
back to all sorts of inadequate muscle strength and/or control.
Bending the knees is what the ballroom tango took on board, maybe
because the canyengue style was in evidence at the time (1910 to 1922).
But the knees don't have to be bent, in fact that flattens the cadence of
the walk (sometimes called snake legs), but they do need to be flexed
and not locked straight. That way the leg muscles contribute to the stability
being sought; locking the knees also seems to lock out the ability
to use of most of the leg muscles.
Too true but people still need to be told that and much more besides.
Some people, even longer term dancers, stay locked and find disassociating
very difficult. It's why many dancers want the freedom to move within the embrace.
So it's back to developing all the necessary fundamental physical abilities
away from classes.
Easy: get into the floor!
I think you were wasting your time there!
I absolutely agree with this. There is no magic formula - every effort you make to train your body, making it strong, flexible and controlled will pay dividends, both on and off the dance floor. But it needs work, you cannot expect to walk onto the dance floor and find your body miraculously prepared for a challenging dance without prior effort.John Em said:
Now this does make sense to me - but of course I would have to be the one creating the opposing forces using my body. The trouble with all these images is that they won't have meaning for everyone. I also find value in the image of lifting the crown of my head to the sky whilst letting arms and shoulders relax - but then after years of yoga, pilates and various other exercise I'm used to playing with different alignments etc.tangotime said:
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Yes.
I think "stability" comes from both work and practice - there's no one simple way of achieving it, it involves correct walking, connection to the floor and to your partner, correct posture, and all the other boring things.
I think you were wasting your time there!
Yes, obviously. Oh well, it was a cheap shot.
What ANY world class dancer "feels" is important in this sense; their ability to convey and describe an " action ", and to describe at as a "feeling " that may be translated to performance.
I would however concede, that those that come into T/Arg without any other form of dance training, that their journey may be fraught with many more pitfalls ,than those who have engaged in other partnership dance disciplines .
Well I did qualify my opinion of dissent, so did Madahlia qualify her
opinion of assent, both of us in much the same terms.
What a world class dancer "feels" is only of importance if he/she can
communicate it in terms that make sense to the majority of
their audience of participants.
Surely the point is that the upward force is within you and the only value
of such imagery of strings etc is to encourage the participant to picture
and simulate the result of such imagined external force. It seems to me
disingenuous to talk of factually feeling such a force which doesn't exist
and merely adds to the mystery of it all without adding any understanding.
And from experience, sometimes those other partner dance experiences
aren't always that helpful and can even be confusing.
I can't comment as I have no experience of his teaching.
However my comments are based on your post of his "feeling"
and you know my view of that now.
And how meaningless the term "World Class" teacher or coach is.
We each have to form our own opinion.
Now that is a bit rich!
We aren't talking well trained dancers here, just ordinary people of
very mixed abilities who may or may not have experience or be
competent in some other dances. So let's not be elitist.