Feeling the connection and having a good frame are skills that are needed in smooth too. If you start at bronze or silver it is very different than the open/pro work you may be seeing. There is a solid frame and connection that needs to be in place for good smooth dancing, this allows the lead and follow that is often needed. At bronze and silver you are limited to how often you are out of hold so this also adds the dimension of learning how to get back into closed hold. I love smooth, it is my favorite style, but good smooth dancing takes some of the same skills as standard dancing.
Standard dancer adding smooth?
- Thread starter ColorfulRibbons
- Start date
Feeling the connection and having a good frame are skills that are needed in smooth too. If you start at bronze or silver it is very different than the open/pro work you may be seeing. There is a solid frame and connection that needs to be in place for good smooth dancing, this allows the lead and follow that is often needed. At bronze and silver you are limited to how often you are out of hold so this also adds the dimension of learning how to get back into closed hold. I love smooth, it is my favorite style, but good smooth dancing takes some of the same skills as standard dancing.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Smooth dancers start learning smooth on day 1, so unless standard training makes you less able to start smooth, which shouldn't be the case, you're ready on day 1.
If by open hold, you mean anything other than closed hold, you should be able to take closed hold and maintain it for a few bars.
If by open hold, you mean apart work with no parts of the bodies touching, you'll need experience with other smooth holds first; standard experience is largely irrelevant to the development of more advanced holds.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
My question is the corollary to this: when is a smooth dancer ready to start learning standard?
I’ve read several DF threads on the subject, and it seems to me that the determination of whether you dance one style or the other or both comes down to personal preference. Some dancers prefer the opportunity in smooth to dance more freely, not holding their partner, bcs they find it more expressive and artistic. Other dancers prefer the discipline and tradition and elegance in standard, and see smooth as an excuse to be sloppy or lazy. (There are lots of other reasons dancers prefer one or the other. Those are just quick examples of what I’ve read on DF.)
Anyway, I don’t want to start a debate on whether one style is “better” than the other; I’m looking for input on whether the two styles can be studied simultaneously...by a beginner...without creating confusion and thereby slowing down the overall learning process.
All the pros at my current studio CAN teach both styles, but the focus is 95% on smooth. I have studied only smooth so far, and am a newbie bronze (started lessons 9 months ago). When I asked my pro about standard, he all but made a face, and quickly brushed off the subject with a vague suggestion that we might possibly talk about it later. (His specialty is American rhythm.) I asked what the main difference was, and he said (basically) that closed hold is required at all times in standard - there’s no separating from your partner to do this or that particular figure.
Well, that answer didn’t put me off. It intrigued me.
And now that dance studios are (I hope only temporarily) closed due to the global pandemic, I’ve been taking virtual lessons with an IFP (“Interim Female Pro”) at a studio further away from me, since my local studio isn’t offering online lessons. She and her husband compete in standard. I’ve watched numerous videos of them performing, and I don’t find it boring or restrictive at all. In fact, I much prefer it to most of the pro smooth performances I’ve watched.
So.
I have already decided that once dance studios reopen, I want to continue my lessons with IFP, and I would like to start learning standard from her. She is a great teacher for my learning style, and having lessons with her has both cheered me up and motivated me to stick with this. She and her husband are on a whole different competitive plane than the pros at my local studio, and her husband would be my pro/am partner (assuming dance comps will still exist post-social-distancing). But I probably also want to continue my lessons with my local pro, partly bcs I prepaid for a bunch of lessons and don’t want to request a refund; partly due to geographical convenience; partly bcs of the fondness I have for him as “my first”; and partly bcs I enjoy the laid-back, social atmosphere of the studio (even though I’d prefer more structured/focused private lessons).
Can I have it all? You know me...wanting the universe to fall in line with my wishes... but seriously, can I? Will studying standard hurt my smooth skills and vice versa? Or might it instead make me better in both styles? Or is this a non-issue? Are these questions totally dependent on an individual student’s interests and abilities?
I guess my bottom line query comes down to whether there are really 4 distinct styles that can all be learned simultaneously, or is it more like 2 styles (standard/Latin) vs. 2 styles (smooth/rhythm) that contradict or conflict with each other? I’m expecting a consensus for the former, but don’t want to assume anything.
Looking forward to all your strong-opinioned replies.
Can I have it all? You know me...wanting the universe to fall in line with my wishes... but seriously, can I? Will studying standard hurt my smooth skills and vice versa? Or might it instead make me better in both styles? Or is this a non-issue? Are these questions totally dependent on an individual student’s interests and abilities?
I guess my bottom line query comes down to whether there are really 4 distinct styles that can all be learned simultaneously, or is it more like 2 styles (standard/Latin) vs. 2 styles (smooth/rhythm) that contradict or conflict with each other? I’m expecting a consensus for the former, but don’t want to assume anything.
Looking forward to all your strong-opinionated replies.
The simple answer is YES. Learning the international styles will be wonderful addition to your dance experience. There is lesson time/money/practicing time to consider, but learning standard will absolutely help your smooth. And you may find that Standard is your prefered style. Your current pro may not be well versed in Standard, but don't feel guilty about going to another pro to learn what you are interested in learning. I left my first studio because they were focused on social and I wanted to focus on competition. I am still very friendly with my first pro, it just wasn't what I wanted and I didn't know that when I walked into his studio.
I have competed in all four styles, and do to time/money have picked my favorites. Many people complete in all four styles, but it was more time and expense than were available to me. However, my learning the International styles helped my American style.
Lots of questions in your posts, PNP. And I think some of them even have multiple answers! Here's my take.
The subtext of the question, though, is interesting. Standard and Smooth may be different styles, but they do overlap, so it can be helpful to understand what the overlap is and how that can affect the transition from one to the other.
In my view, from a technical perspective, Smooth is Standard-plus (in syllabus). Standard is danced exclusively in closed hold, although there are numerous partner positions within that frame. Smooth does all of that, plus open figures; and with that addition, you also need to study how to transition between open and closed positions. So at a low level, Smooth dancers need to spread spread their technical study much wider and shallower than Standard dancers do. As to whether breadth or depth is the "better" starting point? No clear answer to that--it's just different.
From a broader all-dance-skills perspective, the styles are quite distinct. The narrowness of the Standard technical domain, which allows deeper study early on, means that technique is judged more stringently in low-level Standard. Performance skills are expected later. Smooth by contrast, has all those open figures, which demand performative expression to be convincing. Ergo, low-level Smooth contests can forgive some technical flaws, but a flat performance will get you nowhere.
At high levels, you are expected to have all of these skills regardless of style, so the differences narrow. But they don't disappear entirely, as demonstrated by the fact that most Standard/Smooth couples have a "preferred" style in which they consistently place better.
With respect to 2, I'm talking about progress within a single style. Picking up a new style expands the scope of your learning domain. If you want to maintain velocity, you need to increase time spent studying, rather than repurposing existing study time. But assuming you can increase your study time by 30% or so (no need for 2x, because they do overlap), you will be able to maintain your rate of progress. Knowing what I do about you, I assume you're already all-in on study time, so repurposing time is all you can do.
For 3, it's partially individual, partly role-based, and partly a matter of experience. A leader needs to learn a bunch of new steps and patterns, many of which are only slightly different than their counterpart in the other style. The smallness of the differences can just as easily add confusion as dispell it. For a follower, I think level matters a great deal. A low-level follower, who has not established strong following skills yet, will need to learn the difference in the steps just as the leader does, with all the attendant difficulty. If they have developed strong following skills, then they can pick up those differences from the lead, with little to no mental friction.
Concretely, what can Standard add to your Smooth? Technical precision in closed positions, as well as a better understanding of how to be expressive within the (relatively) limited space of closed hold.
What can Smooth add to your Standard? Communication skills, since you don't always have five points of contact to work with in Smooth. Also, disaster recovery, since Smooth dancers need to be able to quickly and accurately regain closed position from lots of crazy places.
As others have stated so well, the question, at face value, is not meaningful. Smooth and Standard are different styles, and one is not a prerequisite of the other. You can start anytime on either one.
The subtext of the question, though, is interesting. Standard and Smooth may be different styles, but they do overlap, so it can be helpful to understand what the overlap is and how that can affect the transition from one to the other.
In my view, from a technical perspective, Smooth is Standard-plus (in syllabus). Standard is danced exclusively in closed hold, although there are numerous partner positions within that frame. Smooth does all of that, plus open figures; and with that addition, you also need to study how to transition between open and closed positions. So at a low level, Smooth dancers need to spread spread their technical study much wider and shallower than Standard dancers do. As to whether breadth or depth is the "better" starting point? No clear answer to that--it's just different.
From a broader all-dance-skills perspective, the styles are quite distinct. The narrowness of the Standard technical domain, which allows deeper study early on, means that technique is judged more stringently in low-level Standard. Performance skills are expected later. Smooth by contrast, has all those open figures, which demand performative expression to be convincing. Ergo, low-level Smooth contests can forgive some technical flaws, but a flat performance will get you nowhere.
At high levels, you are expected to have all of these skills regardless of style, so the differences narrow. But they don't disappear entirely, as demonstrated by the fact that most Standard/Smooth couples have a "preferred" style in which they consistently place better.
- Yes, you can learn both at once.
- It will almost definitely slow you down
- It may or may not confuse you. Individuals vary.
With respect to 2, I'm talking about progress within a single style. Picking up a new style expands the scope of your learning domain. If you want to maintain velocity, you need to increase time spent studying, rather than repurposing existing study time. But assuming you can increase your study time by 30% or so (no need for 2x, because they do overlap), you will be able to maintain your rate of progress. Knowing what I do about you, I assume you're already all-in on study time, so repurposing time is all you can do.
For 3, it's partially individual, partly role-based, and partly a matter of experience. A leader needs to learn a bunch of new steps and patterns, many of which are only slightly different than their counterpart in the other style. The smallness of the differences can just as easily add confusion as dispell it. For a follower, I think level matters a great deal. A low-level follower, who has not established strong following skills yet, will need to learn the difference in the steps just as the leader does, with all the attendant difficulty. If they have developed strong following skills, then they can pick up those differences from the lead, with little to no mental friction.
Learning more styles will never hurt you overall, as a ballroom dancer. It can only make you better. The tradeoff is simply time, money, and learning velocity. Most folks have limitations or preferences in one or more of those areas.
Concretely, what can Standard add to your Smooth? Technical precision in closed positions, as well as a better understanding of how to be expressive within the (relatively) limited space of closed hold.
What can Smooth add to your Standard? Communication skills, since you don't always have five points of contact to work with in Smooth. Also, disaster recovery, since Smooth dancers need to be able to quickly and accurately regain closed position from lots of crazy places.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
When you can rise on the ball of your foot, which I'm sure you already can, you are ready to start learning standard waltz and quickstep. Add tango to that since Smooth tango adopted Standard styling a few decades ago.
You'll be ready for Standard foxtrot when you are ready to learn continuity style ("Silver") American, roughly when you can balance on the ball of one foot for a second or two. However, I strongly suspect you are already ready to learn continuity style, although your current studio is unlikely to teach it to you until after you have completed the Bronze syllabus. That's not a criticism of them, by the way; they have a system that they know works, and they may not want to experiment with variations for each individual student, though you could always ask.
You can have it all if you have enough time and money.
Learning standard will help your Smooth. In fact, I quit Smooth to focus on Standard after my then partner and I placed second in the US in Amateur Smooth, in order to focus on improving technique. In retrospect, we should have kept doing Smooth but focused on the technique in both, as the action is the same and the technique highly overlapping.
Note that Standard and Smooth are much more similar than Standard is to Latin, or Smooth to Rhythm. I assume the same goes for Latin and Rhythm, though I've never done either competitively.
There are at least three distinct styles. Smooth and Standard are distinct from each other and from Latin/Rhythm. Rhythm and Latin used to be distinct in a way where some coaches felt they conflicted, but the styles may have changed to the point where they're compatible, or even identical. Hopefully someone with more experience in those styles can speak to that.
Last edited:
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I disagree with the "much" at least. At a low level, Smooth does not involve complete separation, and contact remains right side or hand to left side or hand or vice versa. This doesn't require a huge amount of additional study.
At a higher level, the figures can involve same hand holds, shadow movements, and complete separation, which are more different from Standard. However, by that point learning choreography is a minority of the learning effort. You do have to learn arm styling for Smooth, but since correct arm styling is an extension of body action, even that isn't completely new.
I've only got anecdotes, obviously. But this has been the experience of both myself in the last year and of my older brother, who doubled Standard/Smooth for a while at the USA national finals level in the mid 2010s. Consistently shifting your communication point is very difficult for newbies to learn. Especially if you're trying to genuinely lead and follow, rather than do parallel independent execution.
The first thing that comes to mind for me as an example of this is shadow position, especially in American Viennese. It requires that you generate partner connection through tension rather then pressure, which is a totally unheard of in syllabus Standard.
Another (easier) example would be distinguishing a Twinkle from a Continuity Ending from single-hand hold. That hand needs to do a lot of work, figuratively speaking. In the same situation, a Standard dancer has four to five other contact points to work with.
Both of these holds have been a major subject of study for me recently. And while I'm definitely not a beginner anymore, I don't feel I've progressed that far beyond it.
Last edited:
singndance
Forum Master
I only wish that when I started to dance smooth I would have had the money and the time to dance standard as well. It would have improved my smooth dancing tremendously. Whenever we have visiting coaches, they spend a lot of time on my closed work which I have very little of, quite frankly, because it is not as good as the other ladies in my classification. If you love smooth, try to carve out some resources to study standard. I am convinced it will pay off.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I think in your case this may be an artifact of your already being at an intermediate level in Standard. It sounds like you're insisting on learning intermediate level technique from the beginning in Smooth, even if you are starting with beginner figures. And if you're doing shadow work in Viennese, you may be beyond beginner Smooth material as well.
I'm guessing you aren't compromising by being sloppy with your Standard technique in Standard, which is what "much shallower" would mean to me.
Well Rounded
Well-Known Member
I think it's important for the instructor to really like the style they are teaching, if you have the options. Most of my experience was in American. I enjoy many styles of partner dancing. American Smooth and Rhythm, International Standard and Latin, Lindy, Blues, Salsa, WCS, Carolina Shag, and Bachata. A teacher whose first love was Standard joined the studio (he was very capable in all 4 styles). I took standard from him. I loved it and it really improved all of my dancing. I invested lots of time and money. It was a financial struggle, but well worth it. After he left the studio, I tried continuing Standard with a couple of other teachers. It was a disappointment and I dropped the style. More than I was willing to spend on hamburger once I had dined on Filet Mignon. Likewise, I never loved my rhythm lessons with the guy who loved standard. If he had become my only choice for rhythm, I probably would have dropped the rhythm.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Love this!!! The expression I use is “it’s hard to go back to lemonade after you get used to expensive champagne.”
But your point is well taken. My current pro loves American rhythm. Is excited and energetic and enthusiastic about all those dances. I can imagine it would be much less fun/rewarding/effective/satisfactory to study rhythm dances with a pro who preferred smooth or standard.
Naturally not. There's no reason I would suddenly forget my Standard knowledge, or choose not to apply it.
I'm not saying that the technical depth is shallower in Smooth. What I'm saying is that Smooth is more complex. The technical knowledge domain is bigger. Because of that, for a given time spent practicing, you spend less time on each topic than you would for Standard. In my context, it means that there are Standard-relevant topics I am not currently studying because I'm spending my time on Smooth-specific work instead. That general paradigm would be true no matter what level I was at.
Last edited:
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
This is interesting to me. It might explain why I’m drawn to Standard. I tend to prefer depth over breadth. For instance, throughout my career, each job I’ve had has gone narrower and narrower into my field, so that now I’m an expert in the extremely specific niche in which I practice. But that means I’ve narrowed my focus so much that I’m pretty clueless in other areas.
It might also explain why IFP is spending so much more time with me on basic technical elements than my regular Pro ever did...he’s trying to give me a broad introduction to the world of Smooth, while she’s trying to help me lay some foundations in cement for building on later.
(Or maybe it’s just because it’s necessary to focus on technical elements when all you have is online lessons.)
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
As I’ve mentioned on DF before, I find myself repeatedly drawn to Standard. I’ve also suggested to my pro several times that I am interested in learning it. His responses have become more and more exasperated. He finally admitted he simply does not LIKE Standard, and does not WANT to teach it. He’s from Ukraine, and grew up dancing International Standard for the first half of his life. He switched to American Smooth about 20 years ago & has been much happier. To paraphrase him, he sees Standard as boring, restrictive, stifling, not fun to watch (him: “how much bronze standard dancing have you watched?” Me: “not much.” Him: “uh-huh...check it out”), too much focus on technical & thus feels less like “dancing” (even though he emphasizes technique in smooth too), repetitive...he has said other stuff too but that’s all I remember right now. Whenever we talk about it, his face looks like there’s a bad smell in the room. If I were less stubborn and assertive, I would have dropped the issue many months ago, after the first conversation.
But I’m me.
I realize that most of this is simply personal preference. What I’ve been getting stymied on is when he demands to know WHY I want to study Standard. His usual response to whatever I say is, “but you can learn that just as well in Smooth, plus a lot more.” That, or the reasons I give him are the very same reasons he doesn’t like it (more subtle, more emphasis on technique & less on “performing,” constant partner connection/closed hold, no open figures). I genuinely believe that studying Standard will HELP my Smooth in the long run, even if it slows down my visible progress.
Anyway, this week I escalated the discussion by asking him point blank which teachers in our studio DO teach Standard.
“Well, all of us CAN.”
“No, I mean which teachers regularly do, and have students who currently compete in that style.”
Pause, then his reluctant answer, “[Name1] and [Name2].”
“Which of those two do you think would be a better fit for me, knowing my learning style?”
Surprised look. “I guess...well...[Name2] has been dancing much longer, but [Name1] has competed in it more recently.” I nodded. He crossed his arms, asking, “are you saying you want to completely abandon Smooth?”
I hesitated, not answering. He took a step back. “Really!?”
I replied, “it’s too early for me to make a decision like that. I don’t want to abandon anything.”
“Yes, you barely just started. You can’t abandon it. But International Standard...I mean... I know how much work it takes to make THIS [demonstrating some closed hold steps] be expressive like THIS [demonstrating much more eloquently and beautifully]. It takes so freaking LONG. I don’t think I have the patience.”
I nodded, not breaking eye contact, then asked quietly, “does [Name2]? Does [Name1]?”
He stared back at me, then deflated. “Sure.” I raised my eyebrows expectantly. He continued, sounding resigned, “so...[Name1] is taller. But that doesn’t have to matter. And [Name2] - he’s very - he almost kind of pushes his students towards international.”
I continued to nod, then sighed and said, “but that’s not where we are today, so let’s go back to dancing.”
So we did. But when the lesson was over, I said, “okay...so...I don’t know the protocol for this. Should I approach them directly about taking lessons in international standard?” He looked surprised again (though idk why), and replied, “no, I will speak to them.”
I have already told him I wouldn’t want to study rhythm with anyone but him. So even if - IF - I added or even switched to Standard from Smooth, he wouldn’t be losing me as a student, and the studio wouldn’t be losing anything at all. And just because HE doesn’t like Standard, why is he so resistant to the idea that I might?
But I’m me.
I realize that most of this is simply personal preference. What I’ve been getting stymied on is when he demands to know WHY I want to study Standard. His usual response to whatever I say is, “but you can learn that just as well in Smooth, plus a lot more.” That, or the reasons I give him are the very same reasons he doesn’t like it (more subtle, more emphasis on technique & less on “performing,” constant partner connection/closed hold, no open figures). I genuinely believe that studying Standard will HELP my Smooth in the long run, even if it slows down my visible progress.
Anyway, this week I escalated the discussion by asking him point blank which teachers in our studio DO teach Standard.
“Well, all of us CAN.”
“No, I mean which teachers regularly do, and have students who currently compete in that style.”
Pause, then his reluctant answer, “[Name1] and [Name2].”
“Which of those two do you think would be a better fit for me, knowing my learning style?”
Surprised look. “I guess...well...[Name2] has been dancing much longer, but [Name1] has competed in it more recently.” I nodded. He crossed his arms, asking, “are you saying you want to completely abandon Smooth?”
I hesitated, not answering. He took a step back. “Really!?”
I replied, “it’s too early for me to make a decision like that. I don’t want to abandon anything.”
“Yes, you barely just started. You can’t abandon it. But International Standard...I mean... I know how much work it takes to make THIS [demonstrating some closed hold steps] be expressive like THIS [demonstrating much more eloquently and beautifully]. It takes so freaking LONG. I don’t think I have the patience.”
I nodded, not breaking eye contact, then asked quietly, “does [Name2]? Does [Name1]?”
He stared back at me, then deflated. “Sure.” I raised my eyebrows expectantly. He continued, sounding resigned, “so...[Name1] is taller. But that doesn’t have to matter. And [Name2] - he’s very - he almost kind of pushes his students towards international.”
I continued to nod, then sighed and said, “but that’s not where we are today, so let’s go back to dancing.”
So we did. But when the lesson was over, I said, “okay...so...I don’t know the protocol for this. Should I approach them directly about taking lessons in international standard?” He looked surprised again (though idk why), and replied, “no, I will speak to them.”
I have already told him I wouldn’t want to study rhythm with anyone but him. So even if - IF - I added or even switched to Standard from Smooth, he wouldn’t be losing me as a student, and the studio wouldn’t be losing anything at all. And just because HE doesn’t like Standard, why is he so resistant to the idea that I might?