Standard dancer adding smooth?

[fiesta0618]

Wow, PNP. That's gutsy, insisting on that conversation when Pro clearly didn't want to have it. Good job!

What I’ve been getting stymied on is when he demands to know WHY I want to study Standard. His usual response to whatever I say is, “but you can learn that just as well in Smooth, plus a lot more.” That, or the reasons I give him are the very same reasons he doesn’t like it (more subtle, more emphasis on technique & less on “performing,” constant partner connection/closed hold, no open figures)...

And just because HE doesn’t like Standard, why is he so resistant to the idea that I might?

I've seen a similar attitude from every coach I've worked with. They have styles they like, styles they don't, and justifications for each feeling that they rationalize as logical, though they are really just emotional.

For example, my coach doesn't like the American style in general. She despises Rhythm in particular, disparaging it as "sloppy Latin." The only reason she agreed to start working with my wife and me in Smooth is that the alternative was for me to break my competitive Standard partnership, which is something none of us wanted.

(Actually, my wife wouldn't have minded, because she used to agree with coach about the inferiority of the American style. She doesn't anymore--more on that later.)

This gets compounded with the fact that the teacher-student relationship has a clear power dynamic, and beginning students tend to adopt the opinions of their teachers because they haven't wide enough experience to distinguish individual opinions from generally accepted facts.

(this being one reason my wife used to dismiss American. Now, having studied Smooth--particularly with a coach who likes and specializes in it--she loves the performative nature of the style and doesn't want to go back)

So for you to NOT adopt Pro's opinion, despite his insistence and his use of the inherent power dynamic, is extremely unusual, and I congratulate you for it.

I genuinely believe that studying Standard will HELP my Smooth in the long run, even if it slows down my visible progress.

I think so, too, speaking as someone who has followed the path of Standard>>Smooth myself.

The main pitfall is that there are similarities and differences between the styles that can be confusing for a while. International Waltz, for example, is structurally similar to Bronze Smooth Waltz, but quite different from Silver+ Smooth Waltz. By contrast, International Foxtrot bears strong resemblance to Silver+Smooth Foxtrot, while Bronze Smooth Foxtrot is very much its own unique thing. And Viennese Waltz, while superficially similar across the styles, is actually almost nothing alike musically and structurally.

And Smooth has no Quickstep, which makes me a bit sad. All that uptempo Big Band music, and no steps for it. Single-time Swing just doesn't land the same, IMO.

 

[worddancer]

So we did. But when the lesson was over, I said, “okay...so...I don’t know the protocol for this. Should I approach them directly about taking lessons in international standard?” He looked surprised again (though idk why), and replied, “no, I will speak to them.”

Our hobby is so expensive, you should do what you love.

So, I actually think you should try out both coaches. Great teacher/student chemistry is a rare thing (in my opinion). Schedule a lesson with the one your Pro recommends, and also the second one.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

So for you to NOT adopt Pro's opinion, despite his insistence and his use of the inherent power dynamic, is extremely unusual, and I congratulate you for it.

 

[lucia_l]

I'm by no means a teacher! I'm just a bronze dancer. So take all this with a big grain (block?) of salt.

On the standard helps with smooth issue: Yes, it must. But I also think all dancing helps you with all other dancing. If you start moving toward depth, posture, body awareness and isolation is something you need in all dances. Plus, some specifics of smooth/standard use the exact same types of isolation, postures etc. So learning one at sufficient depth is bound to help when you switch to the other.

The reasons standard helps with smooth are already discussed and are valid. But I'm going to advocate for smooth helps you improve standard. Smooth done well requires the dancer to transition back and forth from open to closed. For the follow, this means you are absolutely positively responsible for your own frame while open, so the bad beginner habit of hanging on your pro needs to be fixed fast. I suspect that when the open moves become illegal (as in standard) the skill of being responsible for your frame which was absolutely essential in smooth still helps you.

I'm just starting to work on sway, and that includes some open figures with sway. When I do open figures with sway, I have to do the sway all by myself with zero "tip" or "hint" from the lead. My pro certainly can't drag me into the sway during an open figure. ( He has put his hands on my hips while teaching it... but then I have to do that.) Being utterly responsible for this yourself has to also help later in closed figures where sometimes you can "feel" the right way to sway from your partner.

So, here once again: learning smooth can help standard. This does not negate that learning standard helps smooth.

The other issue that came up is people thinking standard is somehow a "higher" level than smooth. I suspect the reason some people think smooth level<<standard level has to do with what happens to the enjoyability and appearance of dancing by fairly unskilled social dancers. The thing about the American Style is it tends to look more enjoyable and ok even when dancers are not very skilled. Skilled dancers will dance Smooth Waltz, Tango and Foxtrot in body contact. It permits more lines of communication for leading, being physically close is important for some moves from a physics point of view and so on. There are lots of very difficult things required to do smooth well.

But pre-bronze can do a lot of fun enjoyable even somewhat showy moves without body contact. You can get around the floor, and a pre-bronze lead and follow can get quite a bit of social enjoyment from a wide array of open moves, return to their frame and look fun. Neither partner's off-ness has to dramatically impact the other partner, and it's comfortable. So even fairly unskilled dancers can look good and not feel to tired and exhausted.

Being in closed position all the time is tiring for beginners! So "standard" is really tough for absolute beginners, especially the typical husband-wife or couple-who-wants to dance who arrives at a studio.

The tiring nature of standard for beginners might not be as big a problem for you as a follow dancing with a pro as it is for two beginning am-am. Your pro-lead already has mastered frame, steps and so on. So you won't be having to dance in closed position with someone who also can't keep his frame. But I do think there are some objective reasons why a pro might want to guide a student to learn smooth first.

Or he might just have developed a taste for the smooth aesthetic.

FWIW: I'm not really even thinking up this idea of American style tending to be more rewarding for beginners up entirely on my own. A while back I was reading something about the separate lines of development for American vs. International. (I don't have a link. I think it was a master's thesis on history.)

If I recall correctly, supposedly, the American style was developed to some extent by franchise studios whose business models was to get non-dancers out dancing socially. American franchises made money teaching non-dancers dances, which the studios standardized. Meanwhile, international was standardized in countries where people were already dancing competitively. Teachers saw selling lessons to improve competitors skills as a niche, and to some extent, the style built out of a situation where teachers could make a living selling "competition". That the steps and techniques were very hard for beginners wasn't their problem.

Over time, the American style grew to also being something one competes. But it retains elements that make it "degrade" to social more gracefully.

Note: I use "degrade" with some trepidation because I do not consider social "less than" competition. In many ways, I consider good social the pinnacle of dancing. BUT, being what it is, social dancing needs to be accepting of less skilled dancers who do not spend thousands of dollars a year improving their technique!

I don't know if your teacher is right or wrong to think that smooth is a better path for learning. But I would suggest he at least might be right. Or he might just now enjoy the smooth aesthetic better! You're the customer, so it's ultimately up to you. I mean... if someone told me ballet and yoga would help my dancing, I'd say... yeah. Well.. maybe. But even if they are right, I don't care.

 

[fiesta0618]

Smooth done well requires the dancer to transition back and forth from open to closed. For the follow, this means you are absolutely positively responsible for your own frame while open, so the bad beginner habit of hanging on your pro needs to be fixed fast. I suspect that when the open moves become illegal (as in standard) the skill of being responsible for your frame which was absolutely essential in smooth still helps you.

I'm just starting to work on sway, and that includes some open figures with sway. When I do open figures with sway, I have to do the sway all by myself with zero "tip" or "hint" from the lead. My pro certainly can't drag me into the sway during an open figure. ( He has put his hands on my hips while teaching it... but then I have to do that.) Being utterly responsible for this yourself has to also help later in closed figures where sometimes you can "feel" the right way to sway from your partner.

So, here once again: learning smooth can help standard. This does not negate that learning standard helps smooth.

That's a really interesting idea. I just now chatted with my wife about it, and she added this opinion, paraphrased:

**********

There's a tradeoff in this. Smooth dancers need to learn to work independently from the very beginning in open figures, and that does translate to better individual habits in closed figures.

The potential downside is that you sacrifice some focus on closed-position partnering. In Standard, you are *forced* by geometry to always be working together. In Smooth--as in Latin--the separation and independence of the partners allows them to dance parallel without dancing together.

Fiesta and I still have..."disagreements"...in how we move as a unit sometimes. Without Bronze Standard forcing the issue, we would probably be completely hopeless at partnering skills today.

**********

A reasonable response to that would be that Smooth does still require partnering skills in open positions; it's just that the details of communication technique are different. I can verify that, because hand-hold partnering is a lot less reliable for my wife and I than full-frame partnering, which we're generally OK at. Hard for me to evaluate how well one translates to the other, because I've only transferred in one direction.

I don't know if your teacher is right or wrong to think that smooth is a better path for learning. But I would suggest he at least might be right.

I'm trying to see past my own biases and history here, but as a teacher, I'm skeptical that Smooth>Standard would be a preferable learning path than Standard>Smooth, with respect to technical improvement and learning velocity. The simple reason is that all Standard technique is fully encapsulated in Smooth movements, but the reverse is not true. Standard is a smaller knowledge domain. And the most effective learning methods generally start by mastering a small domain, then expanding outward and downward.

(because depth is generally a better starting dimension than depth once a core kernel of ability is achieved, this implies that there would be a "perfect moment" to pick up Smooth. A moment where you're competent enough in closed position that you can extrapolate to open ones, but haven't yet "specialized" too deeply in closed position movements. I have no idea what that moment would be--I only know that, if my hypothesis is correct, such a point must exist.)

On the other hand, one of the primary intangible measures of how quickly and how well someone learns is their own motivation. Smooth allows you to do much more exciting things much earlier on, which generates interest and engagement and makes the learner feel "successful." These feelings motivate them to spend more time dancing and practicing. Starting out with the "difficult dullness" of Standard may well yield lower retention for psychological reasons.

In short, Standard>Smooth is probably a more methodologically solid path, but a smaller subset of beginners will remain engaged enough to actually follow through. Smooth>Standard is probably better for keeping engagement, so that students will stay on and study up to a high level.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other, I suppose.

 

[bry_dancer]

I think a lot of this boils down to personality/interest/goals of you and your pro. Are you the type of person that really geeks out to technique and is cool with spending years to get a frame or simple piece of footwork perfect? Or do you prefer learning a variety of visually interesting figures that could also be used on the social dance floor? At competitions do you prefer to be competing against a lot of people or just a few (this will vary by geography and age but in the midwest there are much fewer standard competitors at NDCA comps)? Have you been dancing seriously since you were six or did you start later in life? That's my (biased) take having only been a smooth/rhythm competitor but talking to others that do standard/latin.

I also think it's really funny how even the pros strongly prefer certain dances over the others. Anytime I ask my pro to do a little WCS with me she grimaces, but she lights up when I ask her to do AT so it always makes me laugh how just like us they have their preferred dances and styles...

 

[lucia_l]

The potential downside is that you sacrifice some focus on closed-position partnering. In Standard, you are *forced* by geometry to always be working together. In Smooth--as in Latin--the separation and independence of the partners allows them to dance parallel without dancing together.

Being forced by geometry to always work together probably helps you master closed position when you dance with a pro. It's a bit mixed if neither if neither of you have are close to mastery on closed position.

The main thing is that I'm just not entirely sure one can say which order is the "best" from the point of view of learning. It may depend a bit on what inherent faults of deficiencies the aspiring students have when they arrive, whether they arrive in a pair (e.g. married couple), how soon they want to be on the floor and dance the night away (adults can be more impatient in this regard than kids!) As you noted, motivation matters.

I would say: a student should try to stick to something long enough to have mastered some core things. Doing smooth or standard for a year would likely be pedagogically better than doing smooth for 4 weeks, swithching to standard for 4 weeks then switching back and forth and back and forth. I do think it's good to mix some number of dances, but there is an extreme where you are just doing pointless switching and so never mastering anything.

 

[lucia_l]

Bry_dance,
My pro does not want to teach Bachatta.

 

[Well Rounded]

So we did. But when the lesson was over, I said, “okay...so...I don’t know the protocol for this. Should I approach them directly about taking lessons in international standard?” He looked surprised again (though idk why), and replied, “no, I will speak to them.”

I have already told him I wouldn’t want to study rhythm with anyone but him. So even if - IF - I added or even switched to Standard from Smooth, he wouldn’t be losing me as a student, and the studio wouldn’t be losing anything at all. And just because HE doesn’t like Standard, why is he so resistant to the idea that I might?

It's always good to take a test drive and find out for yourself.
Personally, I was a silver/almost gold American style dancer when I added Standard. It changed my dancing forever in a positive way. I added it because the studio had a teacher that really loved Standard. Once he left, I went back to just American. It was no fun taking International from teachers who "can" do it but don't really love it. It's great that you have options and you want to explore them.

 

[fascination]

As I’ve mentioned on DF before, I find myself repeatedly drawn to Standard. I’ve also suggested to my pro several times that I am interested in learning it. His responses have become more and more exasperated. He finally admitted he simply does not LIKE Standard, and does not WANT to teach it. He’s from Ukraine, and grew up dancing International Standard for the first half of his life. He switched to American Smooth about 20 years ago & has been much happier. To paraphrase him, he sees Standard as boring, restrictive, stifling, not fun to watch (him: “how much bronze standard dancing have you watched?” Me: “not much.” Him: “uh-huh...check it out”), too much focus on technical & thus feels less like “dancing” (even though he emphasizes technique in smooth too), repetitive...he has said other stuff too but that’s all I remember right now. Whenever we talk about it, his face looks like there’s a bad smell in the room. If I were less stubborn and assertive, I would have dropped the issue many months ago, after the first conversation.

But I’m me.

I realize that most of this is simply personal preference. What I’ve been getting stymied on is when he demands to know WHY I want to study Standard. His usual response to whatever I say is, “but you can learn that just as well in Smooth, plus a lot more.” That, or the reasons I give him are the very same reasons he doesn’t like it (more subtle, more emphasis on technique & less on “performing,” constant partner connection/closed hold, no open figures). I genuinely believe that studying Standard will HELP my Smooth in the long run, even if it slows down my visible progress.

Anyway, this week I escalated the discussion by asking him point blank which teachers in our studio DO teach Standard.

“Well, all of us CAN.”

“No, I mean which teachers regularly do, and have students who currently compete in that style.”

Pause, then his reluctant answer, “[Name1] and [Name2].”

“Which of those two do you think would be a better fit for me, knowing my learning style?”

Surprised look. “I guess...well...[Name2] has been dancing much longer, but [Name1] has competed in it more recently.” I nodded. He crossed his arms, asking, “are you saying you want to completely abandon Smooth?”

I hesitated, not answering. He took a step back. “Really!?”

I replied, “it’s too early for me to make a decision like that. I don’t want to abandon anything.”

“Yes, you barely just started. You can’t abandon it. But International Standard...I mean... I know how much work it takes to make THIS [demonstrating some closed hold steps] be expressive like THIS [demonstrating much more eloquently and beautifully]. It takes so freaking LONG. I don’t think I have the patience.”

I nodded, not breaking eye contact, then asked quietly, “does [Name2]? Does [Name1]?”

He stared back at me, then deflated. “Sure.” I raised my eyebrows expectantly. He continued, sounding resigned, “so...[Name1] is taller. But that doesn’t have to matter. And [Name2] - he’s very - he almost kind of pushes his students towards international.”

I continued to nod, then sighed and said, “but that’s not where we are today, so let’s go back to dancing.”

So we did. But when the lesson was over, I said, “okay...so...I don’t know the protocol for this. Should I approach them directly about taking lessons in international standard?” He looked surprised again (though idk why), and replied, “no, I will speak to them.”

I have already told him I wouldn’t want to study rhythm with anyone but him. So even if - IF - I added or even switched to Standard from Smooth, he wouldn’t be losing me as a student, and the studio wouldn’t be losing anything at all. And just because HE doesn’t like Standard, why is he so resistant to the idea that I might?

...I don't know you or your pro so I am just going to throw a number of possibilities out there and let you decide which, if any, may apply to your situation.

1) Standard is a rather unforgiving style...what I mean by that is anything the partner does incorrectly can actually feel really bad for the better dancer...so not every pro, who may have their own physical fatigue or challenges, may want to subject their bodies to teaching standard...and not all feel comfortable deciding to do standard with one if they won't do it with all...students can be difficult that way

2) not every pro is cool with their students taking lessons from other pros in the same studio and not all of them are willing to own up to that...I think most people having finite income for dance plays into this

3) sometimes in the teacher/student relationship teachers can take offense when a student isn't in agreement with their plan/approach to teaching...sometimes they forget that it is also an employer/employee situation...welcome to the age old tension involved in pro am

these are observations based upon my own experiences only
fwiw...if taught correctly, I am not sure that it matters much which you learn first...I adore both for different reasons

 

[Joe]

On the standard helps with smooth issue: Yes, it must. But I also think all dancing helps you with all other dancing.

This is true to some degree. But time spent learning Dance Style 2 will necessarily cause you to lag behind your improvement in Dance Style 1, unless you continue doing lesson and practice time at the same rate in Style 1 as you did previously.

Consider: 10-dance couples are often stronger in Standard or Latin, but not as strong as 5-dance couples are.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

My replies are in bold below.

Are you the type of person that really geeks out to technique YES (in a big way) and is cool with spending years to get a frame or simple piece of footwork perfect? YES (there’s no rush)
Or do you prefer learning a variety of visually interesting figures that could also be used on the social dance floor? NO (actually, I’m not that interested in the social dance floor in general)
At competitions do you prefer to be competing against a lot of people or just a few? A FEW (I’ve always preferred smaller ponds with fewer fish)
Have you been dancing seriously since you were six or did you start later in life? LATER (started lessons at age 50)

 

[lucia_l]

Joe,
I agree with you that ultimately, specialization results in better performance at competition level. As you observe, practice time is a limited commodity.

My guess is people competing at high levels in 5-dance competitions have mostly learned the other dances to an extent. So they have learned body isolation and body awareness and so on. But certainly, once you are at that point, you do need to devote time to the performance dances; specialization allows more time.

 

[fascination]

Joe,
I agree with you that ultimately, specialization results in better performance at competition level. As you observe, practice time is a limited commodity.

My guess is people competing at high levels in 5-dance competitions have mostly learned the other dances to an extent. So they have learned body isolation and body awareness and so on. But certainly, once you are at that point, you do need to devote time to the performance dances; specialization allows more time.

I would say that in pro am, if one wants to attend the big comps and do well, it becomes more difficult at higher levels to compete in more styles and do as well as those who specialize unless one has an embarrassment of riches in time, talent and money...thus, many of these decisions really depend on each person's specific goals, preferences and resources as well as, quite frankly, the availability of really solid instruction

 

[blackswan]

My replies are in bold below.

Thank you for reviving a most interesting conversation! Read back through all the comments and really fascinating to see the constants here. First, dancing Standard will absolutely improve your Smooth. The demands on precision of footwork and frame are much more intense when you need to complete an entire minute and a half in closed hold than when you are dancing several (2-4? not sure of current rules) figures in closed followed by several figures in open position. In that regard, Standard is much less 'forgiving' and is therefore an excellent learning ground. That said, there are still ways, in my experience, in which dancing Smooth can inform you of holes in your Standard - i.e., when you come apart for open work, which parts of your body or frame are you not holding up/supporting on your own? How clean are the reconnections? I first tried Standard as a 'temporary' thing to work on frame but then fell in love with it for its own beauty. And like many here, Quickstep is a favorite And was so pleasantly surprised when I returned to dancing Smooth again with how much more control I had and as a result of that control, how much greater joy I felt in the expression aspects. Enjoy it all, PNP - it's a fabulous journey!!