Standard dancer adding smooth?
- Thread starter ColorfulRibbons
- Start date
Then I stopped and looked at him instead. “Do you love standard?”
He blinked. “Do I what?”
“Do you love teaching standard?”
[/QUOTE]
Good for you!! My pro loves both Smooth and Standard, but I am his only student dancing Standard, and he was so excited when I told him I wanted to try it. It *is* very challenging, so you absolutely want that dedication. Hope you get that from Door #1
He blinked. “Do I what?”
“Do you love teaching standard?”
[/QUOTE]
Good for you!! My pro loves both Smooth and Standard, but I am his only student dancing Standard, and he was so excited when I told him I wanted to try it. It *is* very challenging, so you absolutely want that dedication. Hope you get that from Door #1
worddancer
Well-Known Member
Can someone explain to me why that is?
Several times I ask CleanPrecisePro to dance Quickstep with me, he groans.
I like quickstep. But he said it's the same level as Jive, and he needs to be warmed up.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Sounds similar to a lifeguard rescuing a frantic swimmer in the ocean....
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Pro has explained it to me very much like Larinda said....most students just hang on him and expect him to carry them around the floor. They don’t pull their weight - literally. But it’s not because they’re lazy...some students have had health issues that required, for example, hip or knee replacement surgery, so some of them (but not all) are physically not capable of supporting themselves without a lot of help from their teacher. He also said it’s very demanding on arms & shoulders (& all related muscle groups) to stay in a firm frame at all times, for the student as well as the teacher, even when both partners are sharing the load.
SP (Standard Pro, FKA Name1) is about 6’4”, so he’s a couple inches taller than Pro. I wonder if that makes it easier or harder for him to dance standard than a teacher who is the same height as his student (or maybe it makes no difference).
It seems like teaching standard would be much more physically demanding for a lady teacher than for a man, due to the typical differences in size, weight, & bone structure between partners. That is, in general, women weigh about 15% less than men, are on average about 6 inches shorter, and have less upper body strength (according to Wikipedia, so it MUST be true, right?). So it would require more effort for them to support a heavier male partner, versus a man having to support a lighter female partner.
According to this article from the National Institutes for Health:
“Studies on elbow flexor and knee extensor muscles show a significant loss of motor unit activation in males vs. females following a standard fatigue protocol (1). Although forces exerted by both young men and women are not significantly different, endurance is lower for men than for women (11 vs. 18 min) (39). In the elbow flexor muscle, endurance time to fatigue is 1,806 s in females and 829 s in males (40). After intermittent bouts of isometric contraction (5 s on and 5 s off) in the adductor pollicis muscle, women fatigue more slowly and to a smaller degree than men (31). Specifically, force falls to ∼93% of the maximum in women vs. 80% in men after <1 min of exercise (31). Endurance is longer in women (15 min) compared with men (8 min), and after reaching exhaustion, recovery occurs faster in women than in men (31). Fatigue also appears to be muscle-specific, as evidenced by analysis of both the biceps femoris and lumbar extensors for fatigability. More specifically, women fatigue similarly in both muscles, whereas men fatigue more in the lumbar musculature compared with the biceps femoris (19). These studies suggest that force generation and relaxation are faster during fatigue in men compared with women, whereas endurance is higher and recovery is quicker in women than in men. These differences in muscle performance between men and women may be due to the larger numbers of type-I fibers in women that are characterized by slow oxidative metabolism and thus higher endurance. Overall, these studies lay the groundwork for more extensive basic research on sex differences in skeletal muscle composition and function.”
[Emphasis added.]
“Studies on elbow flexor and knee extensor muscles show a significant loss of motor unit activation in males vs. females following a standard fatigue protocol (1). Although forces exerted by both young men and women are not significantly different, endurance is lower for men than for women (11 vs. 18 min) (39). In the elbow flexor muscle, endurance time to fatigue is 1,806 s in females and 829 s in males (40). After intermittent bouts of isometric contraction (5 s on and 5 s off) in the adductor pollicis muscle, women fatigue more slowly and to a smaller degree than men (31). Specifically, force falls to ∼93% of the maximum in women vs. 80% in men after <1 min of exercise (31). Endurance is longer in women (15 min) compared with men (8 min), and after reaching exhaustion, recovery occurs faster in women than in men (31). Fatigue also appears to be muscle-specific, as evidenced by analysis of both the biceps femoris and lumbar extensors for fatigability. More specifically, women fatigue similarly in both muscles, whereas men fatigue more in the lumbar musculature compared with the biceps femoris (19). These studies suggest that force generation and relaxation are faster during fatigue in men compared with women, whereas endurance is higher and recovery is quicker in women than in men. These differences in muscle performance between men and women may be due to the larger numbers of type-I fibers in women that are characterized by slow oxidative metabolism and thus higher endurance. Overall, these studies lay the groundwork for more extensive basic research on sex differences in skeletal muscle composition and function.”
[Emphasis added.]
Staying in and maintaining frame is much harder than it looks. Others have explained it better.
Suggestion: dance a "heat", let's say 1.5 minutes, of any of the smooth/standard dances entirely in frame (no stopping). If your pro won't agree to it, ask one of the new standard pros.
(Spoiler: I once danced a V Waltz with independent pro at a party, long before I took up Standard with him. We were in frame for 2.5 minutes straight. My neck was on fire).
Suggestion: dance a "heat", let's say 1.5 minutes, of any of the smooth/standard dances entirely in frame (no stopping). If your pro won't agree to it, ask one of the new standard pros.
(Spoiler: I once danced a V Waltz with independent pro at a party, long before I took up Standard with him. We were in frame for 2.5 minutes straight. My neck was on fire).
Yep. I've always been more focused on smooth, but you can feel the problem when doing closed position.
My husband who weighs about 125 lbs used to complain about this when we took group classes. Every beginnerish-dancer (except evidently other than me) leaned on him and many would not move. ( I, OTOH, weighing more like 145 - 160 lbs depending on era, and really being paranoid about overloading him developed the exact opposite flaw of pretty much making no connection at all and in group classes where we learned or more or less memorized the pattern of the week moved before the lead. )
The switch to open positions helps avoid the fatigue from dealing with the other partners weight in smooth. To some extent it forces the follow to carry their own weight. But rest assured, it doesn't force them to move themeselves. I know I'm perfectly capable of just taking teenie tiny steps and letting my arm drop when not in frame!
My husband also reports that there are women who really would not turn unless the guy grabbed her and yanked her hard to provide lots of torque. He likened it to starting an 60's era lawn mower. Our collective theory was that partly explained the guys who really grabbed me and flung me around in Salsa! But at least in Salsa, the teacher can separate from the student and spend time teaching them to turn on their own.
bry_dancer
Well-Known Member
I had a similar experience. One time after my private lesson there was a beginner foxtrot group class and there were roughly ten beginner women but no guys so they asked me stay. Biggest mistake ever!
They basically lined the women up and had me do the foxtrot basic in frame with each of them over and over for 45 mins with no break. My shoulders were on fire the next day and have never hurt so bad from dancing! Made be feel sorry for the pro guys...
They basically lined the women up and had me do the foxtrot basic in frame with each of them over and over for 45 mins with no break. My shoulders were on fire the next day and have never hurt so bad from dancing! Made be feel sorry for the pro guys...
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
In principle, the instructor could greatly reduce this issue by teaching the student proper balance and posture first and not dancing beyond the student's abilities. However, that's not the way to maximize competition results.
Incidentally, Larinda is tiny, so some of the other issues you mentioned are probably magnified with her in terms of trying to help out her students. However, if a woman student is dropping her weight left to get a bigger shape, that's going to really stress any man's right arm when held in a proper competitive frame, even if it does improve competition results.
wahoo_foxtrot
Well-Known Member
When I started to learn close telemark, I find it much harder than DRS. My instructor definitely helped me turn on count 2... Transfer weight from the heel turn and roll LF from heel to the ball at the same time collect RF together and turn on the ball of the LF for 3/8 in a CP was simply impossible to achieve in one count...
If I break it down, it felt that I only turned myself 40% independently on count 2, his own rotation automatically helped me to turn by 40%, and he used EXTRA strength to purposely turn me and keep me balanced by about another 20%... I was like "did you just turn me again? shoot I made you do that again" He was like "I didn't do anything" with an innocent look. But I definitely felt he TURNED me... despite what he said
This "extra thing" that I felt put a toll on an instructor's body...
Every second every day ...
If I break it down, it felt that I only turned myself 40% independently on count 2, his own rotation automatically helped me to turn by 40%, and he used EXTRA strength to purposely turn me and keep me balanced by about another 20%... I was like "did you just turn me again? shoot I made you do that again" He was like "I didn't do anything" with an innocent look. But I definitely felt he TURNED me... despite what he said
This "extra thing" that I felt put a toll on an instructor's body...
Every second every day ...
I've encountered exactly what Warren and Bry_Dancer stated.
I had one partner who wanted a big shape with the only coach she would go to encouraging it. Unfortunately, she was unable to hold her own weight and put a lot of it on me to the point where sometimes the next day I couldn't even lift my right arm. That partnership did not last long.
My experience is that there are only a few female pros who can counter the forces of a man's poor frame and thus, many tend to relax rather then fight. Of course, that makes the whole couple frame look weak whereas in contrast, a male pro can use brute strength to make the frame look better then it really is. I do remember seeing one pro lady push a man twice her size into proper position on the competition floor, but she used her legs and body weight to do this sort of body roll!
Which leads me to my pet peeve in pro/am standard. I've seen ladies dancing with top pro's who are obviously doing 90% of the work to win per Warren's comments. On the other hand, I see AM guys who are doing more on their own and AM ladies dancing with pro's not holding-up them up get much less recognition. It can be very discouraging whether your male or female, but I took solace in the fact that I was truly learning to dance on my own and therefore, could transition to am/am more easily.
Smooth to me is more forgiving. If one is off a tiny bit in smooth, it doesn't really affect one's partner whereas in standard it can have a big impact. For pros, especially female pro's, they can relax into it while also maintaining a good frame themselves. I went from standard to smooth for a while at the silver level where I was barely placing or making finals in Pro/Am standard unisex scholarships, to solidly placing at large comps and even making finals in open smooth with silver routines. My movement was strong, but transitions particularly into (mainly) and out of (sometimes) shadow tended to be awkward. Because I had taken some latin having even danced some studio events . . . and rather poorly at that . . . the arm action of smooth came somewhat easily. In latin the arm action was connected to hip settling actions whereas in smooth it came from a continuation of swing/sway (or I should say that is how it was explained to me). My biggest difficulty came with finishing the lines through the wrist and fingers.
I had one partner who wanted a big shape with the only coach she would go to encouraging it. Unfortunately, she was unable to hold her own weight and put a lot of it on me to the point where sometimes the next day I couldn't even lift my right arm. That partnership did not last long.
My experience is that there are only a few female pros who can counter the forces of a man's poor frame and thus, many tend to relax rather then fight. Of course, that makes the whole couple frame look weak whereas in contrast, a male pro can use brute strength to make the frame look better then it really is. I do remember seeing one pro lady push a man twice her size into proper position on the competition floor, but she used her legs and body weight to do this sort of body roll!
Which leads me to my pet peeve in pro/am standard. I've seen ladies dancing with top pro's who are obviously doing 90% of the work to win per Warren's comments. On the other hand, I see AM guys who are doing more on their own and AM ladies dancing with pro's not holding-up them up get much less recognition. It can be very discouraging whether your male or female, but I took solace in the fact that I was truly learning to dance on my own and therefore, could transition to am/am more easily.
Smooth to me is more forgiving. If one is off a tiny bit in smooth, it doesn't really affect one's partner whereas in standard it can have a big impact. For pros, especially female pro's, they can relax into it while also maintaining a good frame themselves. I went from standard to smooth for a while at the silver level where I was barely placing or making finals in Pro/Am standard unisex scholarships, to solidly placing at large comps and even making finals in open smooth with silver routines. My movement was strong, but transitions particularly into (mainly) and out of (sometimes) shadow tended to be awkward. Because I had taken some latin having even danced some studio events . . . and rather poorly at that . . . the arm action of smooth came somewhat easily. In latin the arm action was connected to hip settling actions whereas in smooth it came from a continuation of swing/sway (or I should say that is how it was explained to me). My biggest difficulty came with finishing the lines through the wrist and fingers.
Dance Redeemer
Well-Known Member
My Pro and I have been discussing how hard standard is on the Pro a lot lately, and particularly to Warren's point about shaping and placements. When we practice for comps (and lately just in "comp mode" so we don't lose it), my Pro pushes me to do some bigger shapes, but I can only hold my frame with that for maybe 10 - 15 minutes doing rounds. Then I start to sag on him. But by doing these rounds, my ability to hold a good frame for longer is very slowly improving. Also, I don't feel "bad" during these rounds since he knows what he's asking for and we can't otherwise figure out how to improve fast or identify where I have a limit. But generally, we do not push shaping to that extent. I do feel bad on a handful of steps where I simply cannot maintain balance and frame - ever. Again, he knows it's coming (and it's down to maybe one figure or combination per dance), but I know that it is not good for either of us. We've been working on this a lot with my coach, and I am definitely a lighter follow (sometimes I can be too light, which I struggle with conceptually since we've been working so hard for me to be lighter). We also have the opposite issue, where he'll "help" me when I don't need it - but he's gotten accustomed to doing that with students. Generally, though, he has stopped taking on new Standard students because it is so physically so hard on him.
fascination
Site Moderator
another thing I am going to be a bit of a wet blanket about here....in the ideal world everyone is crazy mad excited about all parts of their job....one can love standard, and love teaching it but not necessarily love how it feels to teach it...it is hard to appreciate as a newer dancer...but as time goes on, you will go to a social or two and you too will no longer love dancing in closed hold with some folks with whom you may have originally enjoyed. dancing...it is all relative...
fascination
Site Moderator
or let me amend that to say that you may not enjoy it in the same way for the same reason
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Had first lesson yesterday with SP in Int’l Standard, immediately following my lesson with regular Pro. He started me with waltz. My first impression is that it’s similar enough to American smooth waltz to be confusing, because it’s also different enough that you have to pay attention all the time (like driving your car on the opposite side of the road from whatever you’re accustomed to). Turns out I have already formed habits for certain things that are throwing me off (e.g., American almost always starts off with lady’s RF moving back. SP said you tend to see a lot more natural turns in standard, so we started today with my LF moving back first. So almost every time we got in frame, I started with my weight on my LF before remembering to switch).
He introduced me to several bronze syllabus figures, and then tried to lead me through them: 1/2 natural turn, natural spin turn, second half L turn, double reverse spin (heel turn), full reverse turn, whisk, chassé from promenade to closed position.
It was hard!
Things that struck me as notable, after 11 months of lessons in smooth (disclaimers: these are my impressions after ONE SINGLE LESSON so obv I may have understood things wrong and/or may think totally differently as I gain experience; additionally, my smooth knowledge is limited to beginner bronze, so my comparisons may be inapplicable to more advanced levels):
SP jumped right into a level of detail that Pro didn’t introduce for many months. He said it’s because I’ve already been taking lessons for almost a year, so he’s skipping over stuff I already know (unless he sees that I don’t actually know something I should). E.g., on the double reverse spin, he talked about how my RF rolls back onto my heel, how the LF pullllllls back to join it, how I need to turn my head further left as he leads me thru the heel turn, how I then need to roll my feet forward onto my toes (balls?) while simultaneously softening my knees to keep my head at the same height and shifting my weight to my LF and starting to slide my RF forward while starting to turn to the left - you get the idea. I would have expected something much simpler at the very first lesson.
Something Bad:
The small ballroom wasn’t available, so we had to use the main ballroom which is always too loud. I asked SP why they’re not allowed to turn down the volume in there. He explained it’s a holdover from back when they were a Fred Astaire franchise studio...their business model is that loud music implies or creates energy, so they’re required to keep it loud. (For me, dancing itself creates energy, and I’d have a lot more of it if I could hear what he’s saying.) So he had to repeat himself a lot during the lesson, and I had to really raise my voice to make my questions heard.
————————————————————————————————————-
OT rant: I’m starting to develop some major resentment over this. Studio Mgr came into the small ballroom yesterday during my lesson with Pro, and made a joke about how Pro is always holding me hostage in that room instead of the main one. I said, not smiling, that it’s not PRO who always wants to have lessons in the small room; that I’m the one who always insists on it, because otherwise I can’t hear him, because the main ballroom is so loud it’s not just unproductive to have lessons in there, but also often uncomfortable. (Good old PNP, being her usual warm & fuzzy & gentle self.)
And later that day, I texted Pro on the main studio number (which is also read by Studio Mgr), saying I had to reschedule one of our upcoming lessons, because I’d learned that there was a group class scheduled at the same time that day, “so the quiet ballroom will be closed. I’m not willing to waste a double lesson out in the main ballroom where I can’t hear anything you say. [sad face emoji]”
(Passive-aggressive much?!?)
He replied in less than 15 minutes with an alternative time slot for that same day, which I gratefully accepted.
He introduced me to several bronze syllabus figures, and then tried to lead me through them: 1/2 natural turn, natural spin turn, second half L turn, double reverse spin (heel turn), full reverse turn, whisk, chassé from promenade to closed position.
It was hard!
Things that struck me as notable, after 11 months of lessons in smooth (disclaimers: these are my impressions after ONE SINGLE LESSON so obv I may have understood things wrong and/or may think totally differently as I gain experience; additionally, my smooth knowledge is limited to beginner bronze, so my comparisons may be inapplicable to more advanced levels):
- While partner connection is constant, its location is fluid...ranging at different times from the knees, outside of thighs, hips, top of the thighs, and always (?) ribcage. The constant connection makes it easier to feel the lead.
- There are much more interesting things going on with (required of) my feet.
- The whisk reminds me of several steps in bolero.
- The absence of open figures means I don’t ever have to do things with a free arm; however, I still DO have to do important things with my elbows, wrists, and fingers (i.e., my arms don’t get to be lazy & passive just because there aren’t any open figures).
SP jumped right into a level of detail that Pro didn’t introduce for many months. He said it’s because I’ve already been taking lessons for almost a year, so he’s skipping over stuff I already know (unless he sees that I don’t actually know something I should). E.g., on the double reverse spin, he talked about how my RF rolls back onto my heel, how the LF pullllllls back to join it, how I need to turn my head further left as he leads me thru the heel turn, how I then need to roll my feet forward onto my toes (balls?) while simultaneously softening my knees to keep my head at the same height and shifting my weight to my LF and starting to slide my RF forward while starting to turn to the left - you get the idea. I would have expected something much simpler at the very first lesson.
Something Bad:
The small ballroom wasn’t available, so we had to use the main ballroom which is always too loud. I asked SP why they’re not allowed to turn down the volume in there. He explained it’s a holdover from back when they were a Fred Astaire franchise studio...their business model is that loud music implies or creates energy, so they’re required to keep it loud. (For me, dancing itself creates energy, and I’d have a lot more of it if I could hear what he’s saying.) So he had to repeat himself a lot during the lesson, and I had to really raise my voice to make my questions heard.
————————————————————————————————————-
OT rant: I’m starting to develop some major resentment over this. Studio Mgr came into the small ballroom yesterday during my lesson with Pro, and made a joke about how Pro is always holding me hostage in that room instead of the main one. I said, not smiling, that it’s not PRO who always wants to have lessons in the small room; that I’m the one who always insists on it, because otherwise I can’t hear him, because the main ballroom is so loud it’s not just unproductive to have lessons in there, but also often uncomfortable. (Good old PNP, being her usual warm & fuzzy & gentle self.)
And later that day, I texted Pro on the main studio number (which is also read by Studio Mgr), saying I had to reschedule one of our upcoming lessons, because I’d learned that there was a group class scheduled at the same time that day, “so the quiet ballroom will be closed. I’m not willing to waste a double lesson out in the main ballroom where I can’t hear anything you say. [sad face emoji]”
(Passive-aggressive much?!?)
He replied in less than 15 minutes with an alternative time slot for that same day, which I gratefully accepted.