Tango Diaries

Why should it really matter what parts of BsAs dance which way.. Since there is no one authoritative way to social dancers..
I suspect you're trying to tease or challenge me a little, or have you never had classes or workshops with Argentinians? Because they primarily earn their money exactly with social dancers from overseas, their style label has an enormous influence. Ultimately, only their own tradition is presented as the truly authentic tango. I've experienced this over a hundred times!
..emulating, dancers should have their own style..
This is another fundamental difference between us. I expect the people with whom I share my hobby to be able to distinguish between different musical styles, eras, and orchestras. I think being able to actively dance in various styles should also be part of a social dancer's repertoire. At least, that's the case in my own tango peer group.
 
Subjectively, it feels as if you're not moving underwater, but in a viscous medium like syrup.
There's so much personal taste in all of this. It's different for pivots, but certainly in the walk what you are describing sounds very much to me like my idea of heaven, enabling me to lead a step at any pace, and to accelerate or decelerate during it.
 
I suspect you're trying to tease or challenge me a little, or have you never had classes or workshops with Argentinians?
With many of them. Hardly anyone ever mentions “style”. But how is that a point of how relevant “style” of difference parts of BsAs is relevant to me as a social dancer.

Not tease you, but challenge a little in general to all the discussions on “style” factor.
Because they primarily earn their money exactly with social dancers from overseas, their style label has an enormous influence.
I will throw out some random known Argentinians I have taken classes out workshops with - Monica Paz, Luciana Valls, Gabriel Misse, Sebastian Achaval, Carlitos Espinoza, Noelia Hurtado. Only a few names that should be immediately recognizable among many I have taken workshops with.

From each I learnt something useful. It added to my dancing. Did any one of them discussed “style”. One said it didn’t matter and “style” is just an embrace. One other said this is how he dances and was taught since he was a kid and why it works.
Ultimately, only their own tradition is presented as the truly authentic tango. I've experienced this over a hundred times!
I am not sure taking so many classes anyone said anything about truly authentic tango (as far as their own dancing). Not in the class nor in informal discussions or talks. I am taking both very famous and not all that known visiting Argentinians.
This is another fundamental difference between us. I expect the people with whom I share my hobby to be able to distinguish between different musical styles, eras, and orchestras.
Your interpretation usually tends to be very different from mainstream tango crowd :D

I think being able to actively dance in various styles should also be part of a social dancer's repertoire.
That was my point. What a “style” is in X part of BsAs should hardly matter. Except may be as an academic discussion. People should be able to dance parallel, V, shares axis, non shared axis, with lean, without lean, close embrace, open embrace, open hold, etc - as long as it is physically safe for them.

 
What a “style” is in X part of BsAs should hardly matter. Except may be as an academic discussion. People should be able to dance parallel, V, shares axis, non shared axis, with lean, without lean, close embrace, open embrace, open hold, etc - as long as it is physically safe for them.
Exactly.

When I use the word "style" – here or in other discussions – it is a reference to a particular dancer's unique blend of musicality, technique, vocabulary, and affectations. My personal "style" is a mishmash of things that I find aesthetically pleasing, physically comfortable, and emotionally rewarding (whether that means the thrill of moving quickly, the passion of dancing closely, the joy of mastering a difficult movement, or the vindication of defying the norms of tango and being praised by partners anyway). Parts are borrowed from this teacher, that class, a famous dancer, something I saw in a video, or yes, even common myth about how people danced in some time or place . . . but it becomes a "style" only after I have done the hard work to iron out the bits that don't mesh well, and added new bits of my own. That is, only after I've owned it.

"Style" in a bigger sense makes no sense to me. A handful of dancers have commonalities. Communities of dancers have trends – and BsAs neighborhoods are really just communities. Specific aspects of technique or vocabulary have champions or exponents, not stylists, and are movements (in the sense of Expressionism or Neoclassicism).

But normally, people say things like, "painted in the style of Renoir," or, "composed in the style of Mozart." Same goes for tango. You dance in the style of a person . . . hopefully yourself, unless you're happy to ape somebody else. That person might have commonalities with other people, follow trends, and/or be part of a movement, but as they have a different brain and body from the next person, they won't have the same style.
 
..Not tease you, but challenge a little in general to all the discussions on “style” factor..
You're welcome ;)
..Your interpretation usually tends to be very different from mainstream tango crowd :D
You dance more than I do, so you only know the generic, mainstream dancers. I sit and chat more than I dance (involuntarily). That's why I know rather the aficionados, philosophers, and tango eccentrics.
..What a “style” is in X part of BsAs should hardly matter..
You're playing games here. The people from the Villa Urquiza neighborhood don't dance that style, and they didn't used to either. It's more the style that was danced at Club Sunderland and Club Sin Rumbo. People came there from all over. None of the Argentinians you mentioned is dancing VU, except Daniel Missé. As long as you don't leave your comfort zone, you won't come into contact with other worldviews.
..People should be able to dance parallel, V, shares axis, non shared axis, with lean, without lean, close embrace, open embrace, open hold, etc - as long as it..
Agreed, but additional style labels aren't really a problem. As long as labels don't lead to exclusion or marginalization, they're not a problem. Are you worried about that?
 
. Are you worried about that?
No. My objection is to imposition of style or someone thousand miles from BsAs trying to adhere to some X style from BsAs. Let’s call it attempt at blind adherence to some style they think is “authoritive”

I had a few followers who are good friends try to tell me how in BsAs they dance like this, when very clearly their own technique is a hurdle in them able to dance better.

People try to adhere to some style, without properly being able to dance it. But think they are dancing correctly. I can adapt to any “style” and dance within limitations that “style” could impose.
 
People try to adhere to some style
Honestly, the only two style labels I have ever found remotely useful are Milonguero and Nuevo – and that's not because there is an agreed specific definition for either, rather that they are understood in general terms. If somebody tells me they like to dance milonguero style, I'm probably going to enjoy dancing with them; if they call themselves a nuevo dancer, I'm probably not.
 
Honestly, the only two style labels I have ever found remotely useful are Milonguero and Nuevo – and that's not because there is an agreed specific definition for either, rather that they are understood in general terms. If somebody tells me they like to dance milonguero style, I'm probably going to enjoy dancing with them; if they call themselves a nuevo dancer, I'm probably not.

I've never asked anyone before inviting them (or the other way around)
 
rather that they are understood in general terms.
That's probably the key point. Always find it interesting that, for a dance with no formal definitions, people want to insist that the style they dance, or seek to dance, is the 'authentic', traditional style - and everyone else must be wrong. It then needs lots of discussion.

Do we go back to the open, upright, formal posture described by Lima? Or maybe the stylised form of Valentino, or Arthur Murray's Ballroom Tango?

Personally I guess I tend towards the flexibility of Villa Urquiza, but I'll go with what most regard as 'milonguero' (Susana Miller) as opposed to nuevo. I'd go for closed, comfortable 'hug' ('closed', 'cuddle' - choose your preferred description for abrazo) for most, but opening where appropriate to give space. All these many styles have evolved over time to suit today's dance. Invent your own - but that depends how partners, and interestingly others, perceive it.
 
Honestly, the only two style labels I have ever found remotely useful are Milonguero and Nuevo... If somebody tells me they like to dance milonguero style, I'm probably going to enjoy dancing with them; if they call themselves a nuevo dancer, I'm probably not.
So I assume that your Milonguero category also includes tango de salón? That surprises me, because then the differences within your milonguero category in terms of geometry, posture, cadencia and embrace are so much greater than those between this category and nuevo. Therefore, I suspect that irrational assumptions are the main cause of your worldview (cloths, age, location)? Would you like to talk about it?
 
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So I assume that your Milonguero category also includes tango de salón? That surprises me, because then the differences within your milonguero category in terms of geometry, posture, cadencia and embrace are so much greater than those between this category and nuevo. Therefore, I suspect that irrational assumptions are the main cause of your worldview (cloths, age, location)? Would you like to talk about it?
To the wider world, 'Tango' is danced as ballroom fantasia as on Strictly/DWTS (don't forget the rose!).

The sometimes subtle differences between salon, milonguero (centro), orillero, fantasia, escenario, Villa Urquiza, etc, etc, are irrelevant in that world. They might note 'closed' vs. 'open'. Maybe even pickup invented 'milonguero' from 'milonga'. 'Nuevo' just means bigger steps and no sense of navigation - and no idea where/when it originated or significant dancers.

Of course there are differences! I'll go for comfort and, hopefully, looking 'good' (ok, I'll settle for 'passable').

Does it matter if I incorporate some basic pulpeadas from nuevo dancer Norberto Esbrez with a partner who can, or does it make me a nuevo dancer? Or am I betraying some mythical authentic tradition?
 
To the wider world, 'Tango' is danced as ballroom fantasia as on Strictly/DWTS (don't forget the rose!).

The sometimes subtle differences between salon, milonguero (centro), orillero, fantasia, escenario, Villa Urquiza, etc, etc, are irrelevant in that world.
And lest we forget, since its inception in 2003, the Mundial has had but two tracks: Tango de Pista and Tango Escenario. What matters there is, "Do you dance it in a ronda, with movements suitable for a ronda, or on a stage, with whatever movements you like?" Everything else is irrelevant.

So, the cultural organization that fights tooth and nail to "own" tango and sponsor tango internationally, backed by the GCABA itself, cares about only this one distinction. The judges do not seem to care how you choose to dance what tangos by what orquestas from what eras, as long as (1) you dance well, and (2) you don't break rules that exist to keep the two tracks distinct (namely, no escenario in your pista).

Some might attempt to argue, "Well, yes, but we know that pista really means X and that escenario really means Y," but that doesn't pass the sniff test. Simply by watching, you can see significant variations in how different couples dance to exactly the same music – especially in the pista rondas, when they are on the floor together. I don't claim to be an expert, but I was at least there for a qualifier, judged by some of the same who judged the finals, and the top couples definitively did not dance using the same embrace, technique, musicality, or anything else . . . all they had in common was "dancing well enough to get picked."

In this light, point (2) in my second paragraph seems very important. If distinctions between historical "styles" really mattered at this level of dance, there would be tracks for those approaches and rules to ensure their purity. That just isn't the case. So, since I'm not an expert: If the top judges of the top couples in the dance, in the top event in the city the dance calls home, don't think finer distinctions are important, my guess is that they aren't important. After all, if there were a dollar to be made on more tracks in more "styles," you know that would suddenly become important.

Given all of that, I doubt that most social dancers who will never be "top" or judged can even perceive the finer distinctions. (And since they're the primary audience, I imagine that this explains why there isn't a dollar to be made on more tracks in more "styles"!)

Maybe these distinctions mattered at some point, back when tango was a local phenomenon, and people attached a lot of value to their neighborhoods and preferred orquestas. But my suspicion is that at least since around 2003, it stopped mattering to most people – particularly internationally. What matters more where I live is what local school you learned at, and with which teachers, because their personal stylistic opinions influence ordinary social dancers infinitely more than the details of life in Buenos Aires back in the day. Also, the mean experience level hovers at around 10-15 years, so pre-Mundial tango (22 years ago) isn't even on most dancers' radar.
Does it matter if I incorporate some basic pulpeadas from nuevo dancer Norberto Esbrez with a partner who can, or does it make me a nuevo dancer? Or am I betraying some mythical authentic tradition?
My personal style pulls in whatever steps I like, shifts embrace constantly, and expresses the same tango 10 different ways on 10 different evenings depending on how much energy I have, who I'm dancing with, what mood I'm in, and what I've been working hardest on in my coaching lately. I've never once even considered thinking like, "Ah, it's D'Arienzo from 1938, so I have to embrace this way and use only this subset of steps." That would be like limiting myself to a specific food-wine pairing because some famous chef or oenologist said so, or because of the geographical origins of the food and wine, without ever discovering other food-wine accords. I mean, that's a great plot device for a James Bond film, but rather sad in real life.
 
Whatever. I don't strive to dance Villa Urquiza though, however you may define it.
I developed a personal style years before I developed consciousness about dance trends in specific regions of a faraway city or major movements in tango instruction/deconstruction/analysis/categorization according to various cultural historians and maestros. In fact, I was dancing a style that partners commented upon as being uniquely my style right before the pandemic (after about 7 years of instruction), and started to read up on all that other stuff only during the pandemic lockdowns (2020-2022), because I missed being able to go out to dance and wanted to do something related to tango. In the three years since, I've doubled down on personal style and engaged a second coach to help me with it.

So, striving to dance some external vision of tango is very, very far from my personal trajectory.
 

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