Tango Diaries

So the ones who primarily try to only use true cabaceo are the older and lesser skilled, on average anyways, it also depends on the milonga.
I don't find this to be case. I agree with most of the other things you mentioned. But the cabeceo is used by both younger and older dancers of varying skills. I find that the ones who consistently avoid using it tend to be the rank amateurs (and I don't simply mean non-professionals) because they never learned it correctly in the first place. I'd also add that in crowded milongas, which tend to be chaotic and disorganized here, it's even difficult to find the person you want to dance with much less look at them to secure a tanda. (Also, the lighting at night at some milongas--that does not work in my favor.)
 
I think you've been around for a while and they've been around for a while and you've never danced because she never wanted to, the chance of that happening in the future is slim. A lot of women would, apparently, just rather sit.

That's the conclusion I've come to, although I've noticed a few of them starting to look at me. I've lost interest in dancing with them, so they'll have to be more direct if they want a tanda.
 
I don't find this to be case. I agree with most of the other things you mentioned. But the cabeceo is used by both younger and older dancers of varying skills. I find that the ones who consistently avoid using it tend to be the rank amateurs (and I don't simply mean non-professionals) because they never learned it correctly in the first place. I'd also add that in crowded milongas, which tend to be chaotic and disorganized here, it's even difficult to find the person you want to dance with much less look at them to secure a tanda. (Also, the lighting at night at some milongas--that does not work in my favor.)
I find cabaceo usage more common the smaller the venue is (Solas and Nacional). The bigger ones a lot less so from my experience.
 
We have a lot of younger followers. There are exceptions, but most are what I'd call "hyperactive": They feel that they must ornament every step, and they can't stay grounded, keep their feet on the floor, feel leads for tiny steps, or step around their leader and within their leader's frame instead of across their leader and thus the entire floor. Many cannot dance completely closed ("milonguero style," if you like) or replace pivots with crossing steps. Nearly all are recognizable by their bolt-upright posture, near-zero knee bend, and an almost aggressively separate axis.

Out here locally, the younger followers (below 40) not only tend to quick learners but on an average are better dancers compared to older ones (over 50). It goes for both the leaders and followers. The exceptional few who become really good in less than a year or eighteen months are all younger (below 40). In all these years I just can’t think of a dancer who started Tango when in the middle age and improved as fast as the exceptions. Or to put it other way haven’t witnessed exceptions in middle-age and older cohort.

Speaking of younger followers (as well as leaders by watching) they tend to have better fundamentals, better technique, better frame, and better response to the music. 80% of the pista dances in close embrace. That’s not dependent on the age. Like I said before having danced in many other cities, close embrace is something that I call universal. If majority of the pista is not close embrace, then for me it is an exception. When dancing in other places too, the younger followers on an average are better than older cohort. The older followers who started dancing when they were younger, also tend to be better and that is expected.

I am not sure why the younger followers in your scene are the way you described. My guess is they are learning tango from instructors who may not be teaching them right things. And they are dancing with leaders they don’t challenge them.

I will also say what you describe is exhibited by dancers irrespective of age. The excessive ornamentation is something I experience far less here irrespective of age group. Dancers style here is more influenced by whom they are learning from
Older followers typically keep steps tight, conservative (e.g., rebotes in place of boleos), and "in the floor," know when to cross instead of pivot, and are happy to stay glued in close, so that it's possible to dance in a tiny square that rarely moves. That's actual social dance skill.

These skills come with both learning and experience. For example crossing instead of pivot is something that instructors should expose the followers too. Without that many followers won’t figure it out on their own. I haven’t experienced younger followers exhibit the symptoms mentioned more than the older followers.

I guess somewhere between he 1980s and today, our community and yours diverged on what's important in the dance, and that appears to have had knock-on effects for things like invitations.

I think the critical mass of social dancers only arose after mid-nineties.
 
Well from what I’ve heard, a ton of the experienced dancers in nyc left after the pandemic, to cheaper cities, or simply they just don’t dance as much. So I guess the average skill level of the older crowd (not counting the many professionals), has dropped.
The floor craft at most milongas has become a mess. To the point where the host of one has placed tape on the ground drawing lines between the inner and outer rounda (it’s a rectangular space), which has worked remarkably well despite it being kinda tacky. Actually would wish they did this at all the other milongas now.
Most of what you have said in this post and few others reflect here too. I think it has similarly impacted Tango in most North American metros.

I would say we lost and gained almost equal number of experienced dancers pre and post pandemic. Sometimes I dance with someone that is good enough and I never seen them before. It often turns out they might have moved into the area in the past year or two but hardly ever come out. There are also some who are coming back after a hiatus of 6-10 years.
 
..have a lot of younger followers.. They feel that they must ornament every step, and they can't stay grounded, keep their feet on the floor, feel leads for tiny steps, or step around their leader and within their leader's frame instead of across their leader and thus the entire floor. Many cannot dance completely closed..
I think we should delve deeper into this. Hence my question:

-Who taught them this way (teachers)?
-What influence do usual leaders have on their style (community)?
-What role models do these followers have, and how did they find them (media)?

I recognize an oscillation between the generations more or less in every tango community:

1) The original dancers of the first generation danced Escenario.
2) The countermovement wasn't long in coming: the milonguero style.
3) Outraged by this mutilation of playfulness, the Neotango emerged.
4) This wide-legged lack of any style again triggered the wave of stylistically over-exaggerated elegance of the Villa Urquiza style.
 
The exceptional few who become really good in less than a year or eighteen months are all younger (below 40).
Few people here start tango at over 40. I started at 45 and I was the "old man" of not just my class, but of many classes. There were a few people older than me in a whole week of multiple classes per day across six levels. I know this because I was an accompanier who practically lived at the studio. So, my comment here is, "Yes, we had some people who improved very quickly, but they were about the same age as the ones who did not."
Like I said before having danced in many other cities, close embrace is something that I call universal.
I am not doubting your experiences! However, I have several teacher friends who spend 100+ days of the year touring the world for dance, and they've come to call the pseudo-close embrace (i.e., torso-to-torso contact only when convenient, separate axes, no weight sharing, turns are big orbits of follower around leader) the "international embrace." Genuine close embrace – torso contact at all times, dancing on three axes (leader's, follower's, shared), real lean and weight sharing rather than its illusion, turns are mostly mutual (around the shared axis, not the leader's axis) and tight – doesn't seem to be as common.
I am not sure why the younger followers in your scene are the way you described. My guess is they are learning tango from instructors who may not be teaching them right things.
You will get no disagreement from me there! My coach says that about twice an hour. I've been in the studio at the ends of lessons – group and private – before milongas and heard teachers talking to their students. In essence, they're creating a generation of show dancers for the social floor, people who think that a beautiful follower is light, floaty, and rarely standing on two legs.
And they are dancing with leaders they don’t challenge them.
Definitely. Leaders are in such profound shortage here that they have zero incentive to improve. A lot of them do weird stuff like visibly recoil back on their rearmost leg before each step to generate "push" (so it's like backwards-FORWARD, backwards-FORWARD all the time, and never forward-forward-forward-forward with drive and sustained momentum) and advance their forward leg before their torso in a sort of under-scooping movement (so their torso almost pitches backward and their weight arrives very late). I'm not sure where they're learning that stuff, or if they're even learning it at all rather than deciding on their own that's how tango works.
These skills come with both learning and experience. For example crossing instead of pivot is something that instructors should expose the followers too. Without that many followers won’t figure it out on their own. I haven’t experienced younger followers exhibit the symptoms mentioned more than the older followers.
My experience is that the younger the follower, the more flexible. This makes it more possible to engage in the extreme dissociation necessary to get a pivot in a situation that would block a pivot and naturally result in a crossing step in someone older and less flexible. Which is a case of "learning the wrong thing," because as a leader, when I lead a turn so tight that I'm expecting a cross, getting a pivot messes with the timing and footwork. Yes, of course I can read what I actually get in my partner's body, but the guys who dance as described in the previous paragraph cannot, so the results are bizarre.
I think the critical mass of social dancers only arose after mid-nineties.
That depends on where you live. I know people from communities where milongas were packed even in the 1990s. They just weren't where I lived then. ;) That's talking only of tango. Salsa is also social dance, and salsa was a big deal down in NYC in the 1970s, and made it up here by the 1980s at latest – though in its Cuban form, not Puerto Rican. When I arrived in Montréal in 1990, there was a noisy salsa place near where I lived, always packed.
 
-Who taught them this way (teachers)?
Depends on who the "them" is. The original teachers here in the 1990s were a stream of "Any Argentine who was willing to travel." I'm not sure what that says about lineage, but it was certainly catch as catch can.

Today's teachers are those who were taught in the 1990s and, more recently, those who were taught by those who were taught in the 1990s.
-What influence do usual leaders have on their style (community)?
Honestly, I think that the followers who are light, floaty, and prone to high legs and ornaments influence the leaders more than the leaders influence the followers. The leaders see followers who do this and go totally nuts trying to provoke those movements.
-What role models do these followers have, and how did they find them (media)?
The main role models are a mix of local teachers (quite a few of whom are women my coach says "need to go back to lessons") and the latest version of "Any Argentine who is willing to travel."
1) The original dancers of the first generation danced Escenario.
2) The countermovement wasn't long in coming: the milonguero style.
3) Outraged by this mutilation of playfulness, the Neotango emerged.
4) This wide-legged lack of any style again triggered the wave of stylistically over-exaggerated elegance of the Villa Urquiza style.
Here, the original dancers (~1993) danced so-called "tango nuevo," "neotango," or whatever you call the Frumboli-Naveira-Salas thing. They were challenged by the abrupt arrival of tango de salon a short time later, which is what I learned. The two traded blows until the rise of dance TV shows that occasionally had tango (c. 2005) brought escenario into the mix. The so-called "milonguero" style – and even canyengue – was always there on the outside of all this, mainly among immigrants who didn't frequent tango schools teaching any of the above. There certainly wasn't a strike-counterstrike thing where these styles traded dominance; I'd describe the situation more as cross-pollination.
 
I am not doubting your experiences! However, I have several teacher friends who spend 100+ days of the year touring the world for dance, and they've come to call the pseudo-close embrace (i.e., torso-to-torso contact only when convenient, separate axes, no weight sharing, turns are big orbits of follower around leader) the "international embrace." Genuine close embrace – torso contact at all times, dancing on three axes (leader's, follower's, shared), real lean and weight sharing rather than its illusion, turns are mostly mutual (around the shared axis, not the leader's axis) and tight – doesn't seem to be as common.
How are you defining it as genuine vs pseudo close embrace if there aren't really established standards? Here in nyc the more common embrace is torso to torso contact at all times, separate axes, no weight sharing, and turns can vary between tight/big orbits, and embrace can dynamically shift between close/open with the more advanced dancers during the dance. Lean/weight sharing isn't common.
This was also the case the few times I've been in BA as well
 
That sounds like someone who has encountered the concept of projection but not understood it. Or been taught it badly.
I've been in classes where they taught this technique of going backwards a little bit before going forwards (or slightly shifting right before taking a left step etc), to produce a slight rolling sensation ( I think even a chicho workshop mentioned this), but it wouldn't be used as a normal/default step.
 
How are you defining it as genuine vs pseudo close embrace if there aren't really established standards?
I'm using my words, not judging others . . . I'm telling you how I feel. The thing I call "pseudo" feels like my partner isn't truly with me much of the time, while the thing I call "genuine" feels like my partner and I have one body. Your definitions and experiences probably differ!
Here in nyc the more common embrace is torso to torso contact at all times, separate axes, no weight sharing, and turns can vary between tight/big orbits, and embrace can dynamically shift between close/open with the more advanced dancers during the dance. Lean/weight sharing isn't common.
I shift to and from all the time myself – I don't lock myself into one option. However, everybody needs to have a "starting" or "home" option, or they'll be completely unclear, and my "starting" or "home" option has weight sharing and lean. Which said, I'm not pretending that's dominant here. The style you described is more common for sure.
 
That sounds like someone who has encountered the concept of projection but not understood it. Or been taught it badly.
Something like that. I was taught that one advances the torso to "project" and then the legs come along due to being attached. Yes, of course your legs stay under you (or you fall over), but they shouldn't carry most or all of the intention of the step, which should come from the core. In effect, the legs ground the core so that it can communicate.
 
I've been in classes where they taught this technique of going backwards a little bit before going forwards (or slightly shifting right before taking a left step etc), to produce a slight rolling sensation ( I think even a chicho workshop mentioned this), but it wouldn't be used as a normal/default step.
It's useful for developing traspiés and other swung movement, especially in milonga, but no, it isn't a normal step and it's just about always part of quick movement, whereas the thing I'm seeing seems to be used more often for slow, lyric movement. Even so, I'm more of a fan of using the core for that, communicating a ∪ or ∩ in the body to create "rolling," rather than falling back on my rear leg. As noted in my other response, the legs ground the core to let it speak; they don't do the speaking all on their own.
 

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