Tango Diaries

[JournalInTime]

Actually, the myth is that you need a lot of lessons in AT specifically

Sure, that's reasonable. Both myths exist, though. They aren't exclusive.

Myth 1. "Without classes in AT, specifically, you cannot dance AT." Well, no . . . if you learn to dance, you can learn AT as a short postscript to that – possibly on your own. You need some dance training, but that can be generalized movement training. As I continue to "study tango," I've come to realize that my past few years have been a study of posture, respect for the body in movement, use of the floor, and how to analyze and teach dance . . . I don't recall my last class in the traditional steps or music of AT! While I don't dance other dances, that's as much due to having insufficient time and money as anything else; I've even had people just assume I could dance [insert style here] because of how I move.

Myth 2. "You don't need to study AT to dance it, because for X years since date Y, ordinary Argentines went out and danced AT, and so did my friend Q, who never took a lesson, etc." No, you need to study something. It doesn't have to be AT (see above), and it doesn't have to in be a formal class in a studio with mirrors and a teacher at the front, but the idea that people "have dance in their lives" and "pick it up organically" ignores all the time that the people who already know how to dance spend "dancing" with you, talking you through the movements, and being patient with you. Apprenticeship is still study.

Where it gets confusing is when people who learned AT via apprenticeship rather than classes, and other people who self-taught AT after years of general dance study, say, "You don't need AT lessons to dance AT." They're sort of right, but they're lying by omission when they hide the fact that they received lessons from friends or acquaintances instead of teachers, or practically have a doctorate and a career in dance, just not in AT specifically.

I've never met the person who walked into a milonga having never once danced a single step of any dance in their life, watched how AT was danced for a few tandas, and then stepped onto the floor and danced AT competently (I don't mean "competently in their own mind," but "competently in the eyes of a non-beginner AT dancer"). I've met many who claimed to have done so, but when I dug, I learned that they studied or danced some other dance before, or were taught on the fly by advanced AT dancers.

 

[Brummbaer]

I've never met the person who walked into a milonga having never once danced a single step of any dance in their life, watched how AT was danced for a few tandas, and then stepped onto the floor and danced AT competently

And, of course, one consequence of that was the zouk(?) dancer in NYC who went to a milonga...(there were many, many, other contributing factors).

 

[opendoor]

.. rather dance than sit..

There are different occasions, approaches, and exits. Each of us is unique. I don't need to be on the dance floor to be able to dance. Rather, I began to truly dance when I came home late at night, put on my headphones, and danced alone in socks in my apartment. I find partner dancing always a hindrance. Solo dancing is my true passion. Nevertheless, I was an excellent tango dancer.

 

[lucia_l]

Quite true. More than once I've had someone call me a snob because I've danced, say, 18 tandas with 18 different people who weren't them. ...

At a "previous studio", I overheard one woman complain I "hogged" my husband! LOL!

 

[JournalInTime]

At a "previous studio", I overheard one woman complain I "hogged" my husband! LOL!

I hate that!

Yet when my partner does come out with me, and we dance largely together because it's the one time in a week or two (and sometimes even a month or two) when we've managed to go dancing together, she tells me that some of the women who usually dance with me whisper something similar to her. Going forward, I tend to dance more with the ones who understand that when my partner is present, she has priority, than the ones who begrudge my partner her dances with me.

Something similar applies when I go to milongas with certain friends. I have a few women who come out to dance with me principally to, well, dance with me. My girlfriend knows and trusts them all . . . when people gossip to her that they saw me with one of these women and it looked like a date, she laughs in their face. Others seem to have difficulty fathoming that two dance friends might prefer to be left alone if they show up together, sit together, and leave together, date or no date.

It's especially weird to me in AT, where part of my "cultural education," at least, was learning that couples and groups at tables are normally not seeking to be invited by others while seated at the table. If they're interested, they'll stand up and look for invitations from a more distant vantage. Maybe that's no longer standard operating procedure, though.

 

[Rabbit]

I've never met the person who walked into a milonga having never once danced a single step of any dance in their life, watched how AT was danced for a few tandas, and then stepped onto the floor and danced AT competently (I don't mean "competently in their own mind," but "competently in the eyes of a non-beginner AT dancer"). I've met many who claimed to have done so, but when I dug, I learned that they studied or danced some other dance before, or were taught on the fly by advanced AT dancers.

Often both, I've played the "advanced dancer" role in this scenario many times. I only explain one or two things if necessary and the rest of the time I translate their movement language into AT steps and adapt/improvise with them. I should note that a salsa/bachata expert for example can also make me look good dancing those dances even though I'm mostly improvising everything.

I still can't make someone who does not know how to move look good in motion.

It's especially weird to me in AT, where part of my "cultural education," at least, was learning that couples and groups at tables are normally not seeking to be invited by others while seated at the table. If they're interested, they'll stand up and look for invitations from a more distant vantage. Maybe that's no longer standard operating procedure, though.

I think it is standard. It is up to those sitting at a table with a partner/group to make it clear that they are interested in dancing with people outside their table.

 

[Bailango]

I hate that!

I am trying to think of anyone complaining that a partner or gf/bf is hogging their opposite! That’s a first

Something similar applies when I go to milongas with certain friends. I have a few women who come out to dance with me principally to, well, dance with me. My girlfriend knows and trusts them all . . . when people gossip to her that they saw me with one of these women and it looked like a date, she laughs in their face. Others seem to have difficulty fathoming that two dance friends might prefer to be left alone if they show up together, sit together, and leave together, date or no date.

It is clear that sometimes people come to dance with each other. And it gets hard to tell when either of them is open to dance with others.

It's especially weird to me in AT, where part of my "cultural education," at least, was learning that couples and groups at tables are normally not seeking to be invited by others while seated at the table. If they're interested, they'll stand up and look for invitations from a more distant vantage. Maybe that's no longer standard operating procedure, though.

I always thought that is a standard operating procedure. When has it changed?

If people are sitting as a couple or in a group, I won’t try to cabaceo. Unless as you say they are looking for invitation. Being a leader, my experience is that women in group don’t stand up and look for invitations. However you can tell from their body language whether they are open to invitation or not. Most of the time what I find is leaders that are not part of the group will go stand close to where the group is and then either cabaceo or ask verbally.

It sort of splits in the middle. About half of the leaders will not try to unilaterally invite a lady seating in a group unless she sends some signal or availability. The other half of leaders will force themselves on the lady seating in the group. There is also that middle ground where the leader and the lady seating in a group know each other.

All these (social) interactions are not black and white. There is a lot of gray and caveats. Yet there is certainly a large percentage of leaders, who are impervious to any social codes. Since they repeatedly get away with it, it becomes a norm for them.

 

[tangoing]

It's especially weird to me in AT, where part of my "cultural education," at least, was learning that couples and groups at tables are normally not seeking to be invited by others while seated at the table. If they're interested, they'll stand up and look for invitations from a more distant vantage. Maybe that's no longer standard operating procedure, though.

In NYC it's a weird mix.
1. Those who sit at the table and are tough to cabaceo unless you walk very close to them for a point blank cabaceo (younger followers usually, or people who are in the back part of the room)
2. Those who sit at the table and are more proactive in looking for people cabaceo'ing them.
3. Those who move around and socialize more than sit, or just didn't snag a table to have option to sit (can be mixed difficulty trying to cabaceo them).

Depending on the milonga it can be something like a split of 40/30/30

I personally rarely sit and will be near the bar or whatever standing area is common

 

[tangoing]

All these (social) interactions are not black and white. There is a lot of gray and caveats. Yet there is certainly a large percentage of leaders, who are impervious to any social codes. Since they repeatedly get away with it, it becomes a norm for them.

I've pretty much learned if a leader is well liked enough / popular enough / have enough status etc they can do anything. I.e a popular touring celebrity performer/instructor can just interrupt any group to ask the follower to dance and she'll most likely be delighted and her friends would be jealous.

This parallels picking up a girl at a bar/club, if you're some random person it can be tough (might have to look for cues etc), but if you're some well known celebrity it doesn't matter what you do.

 

[Bailango]

I've pretty much learned if a leader is well liked enough / popular enough / have enough status etc they can do anything.

As with everything else in life. This part is not tango specific.

This parallels picking up a girl at a bar/club, if you're some random person it can be tough (might have to look for cues etc), but if you're some well known celebrity it doesn't matter what you do.

Yes. As above.

 

[Brummbaer]

It's especially weird to me in AT, where part of my "cultural education," at least, was learning that couples and groups at tables are normally not seeking to be invited by others while seated at the table. If they're interested, they'll stand up and look for invitations from a more distant vantage. Maybe that's no longer standard operating procedure, though.

Yes, that's part of my cultural AT education too, but 'tables' are frequently a novelty. OK, there might be a few mixed in with a line of chairs along the edge of the room, but no one's sitting at a table. At 'best' you might be alongside a table as somewhere to put your water. At most milongas we attend there's no room for tables to sit at, and certainly no table service. In some larger halls there are tables squeezed in at one end, or along one side (perpendicular to the LOD behind some pillars). The only occasion we see tables set out as portrayed in old BsAs videos are in significantly larger venues in some metropolis.

So, I guess, dancers adapt the way they invite to the environment.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

I dislike the 8CB as a dance step.

The 8-count basic shouldn't be taught, period.

 

[Brummbaer]

The 8-count basic shouldn't be taught, period.

Nowadays that's like saying ballet lessons shouldn't use positions. That horse has well and truly bolted.

 

[tangoing]

The 8-count basic shouldn't be taught, period.

There are some niche lessons where it can be good. For example I've had musicality lessons where the teacher just told us to just repeat the 8 count basic, that way he didnt have to teach the class some pattern that people may struggle with, and allowed everyone to focus on the musicality topic at hand.

 

[Brummbaer]

There are some niche lessons where it can be good.

One good exercise is leading without any physical hold. 8CB is a good starter for that because it's well known. Ocho cortado is another good move for that, or both doing a giro simultaneously.