Tango Diaries

[Bailango]

More dancers start to dance social, lot of them sooner or later adopt next dances, like Salsa, Zouk, Kizomba and WCS.

Doesn’t happen. Ask organizers who try to promote mixed salsa and sensual events. Sensual people often find salsa difficult. Both the music and the dance. Very few like dancing salsa.

Bachata Dominicana was not able do such job like this artificial bastard called Bachata Sensual. )

Actually the bachata is easier and simpler dance. If you take out the Dominican footwork.

Most people look awkward and ugly doing those rolls. It takes practice and technique to do the rolls properly. Then doing to the music is another level.

 

[opendoor]

..bachata is easier and simpler dance. If you take out the Dominican footwork.

But it's precisely the footwork what's the soul of b.dominica. If you take that away, you can't even call it bachata anymore.

I learned b.sensual at the beginning of the century (and refreshed it during the pandemic). I didn't knew that b.dominicana even existed. As written above, also the Latinos in my town danced b.sensual. It wasn't until 2007 that I discovered a video on YT that truly fascinated me. That was the first time I actually saw b.dominicana. Unfortunately, the video was deleted from YT, but you can still find it on FB.

Como tu - Felix Ogando Y Anny Ledesma

 

[Miradamiranda]

Dear diary.

Feeling nostalgic. Tomorrow will be my last good milonga for 6(!) months. I plan to dance every dance like it’s my last. I know there’ll be good partners that I know there, and I’ll meet new ones. My favorite monthly event where people travel 2-3 hours to get to. Then the next half a year I’ll be in withdrawal because the scene collapsed in my community. I’ll have to drive 2-3 hours to get to a basic milonga. Now, if it had been a fantastic one, I’d do it, but there isn’t a single person I know who’d be in those places that I’d be excited to dance with. Once my withdrawal symptoms become too strong I’ll probably end up going anyway. Or I’ll simply get into the mindset of looking forward till spring and a long summer of a great scene and great long weekend events. My heart is full from the last 6 months with fabulous marathons, festivals and an encuentro, as well as milongas.

I know many of you have the opportunity to dance every day of the week and might become a bit blasé about the value of each event because there’s always another one. I was like that with respect to concerts when I lived in Manhattan. I could walk to Carnegie hall, Lincoln center, and a good number of jazz clubs and dance venues, and I went all the time. Then I started taking it for granted.

I certainly don’t take the pleasures I get from Tango for granted.

 

[JournalInTime]

An actual diary entry again . . .

Since the spring, I've revised my tango schedule (and had lots of "fun" life experiences unrelated to tango, but that isn't topical):

	Before	After
Evening Milongas	3-4/week	3/week
Daytime Milongas	1/week	0/week
Prácticas	1/week	1-2/week
Coaching/Private Work Sessions	1/week	2/week

More focus on work and practice, with a bit less social dancing because I don't have a bottomless well of energy, money, and time. This has shifted my gaze when I do go out to dance: In breaks, I am watching other dancers' technique more. One thing that has struck me as odd is how people generate forward intention.

I was taught that you assume a very vertical posture, with a nice line down the back of your head to your heels, as if flat against a wall behind you. Then you incline your entire body a little forward from the ankle, taking more weight onto your metatarsals for balance. If you need more intention, you soften your knees more to bring everything above knee level forward. Your spine has no bend in it anywhere. There is space down below because of the inverted-cone posture.

I am seeing people sticking their chest out and often thrusting their rear-end back to create more space down below. Yet they are keeping their legs vertical. All forward intention is in the chest, and everything else (almost) is withdrawn. Their lumbar spine is unquestionably curved. As a result of this, many of them jut their chin out, too . . . their head is forward of their chest, curving their cervical spine as well.

I asked a chiropractor, a Pilates instructor, and a physiotherapist about this. They were unequivocal: The chest-out/rear-end-back curved spine is bad for your spinal health no matter how strong your core, and there is a nonzero risk of a vertebral compression or worse if you rotate in this posture . . . and of course we rotate all the time in tango.

To be balanced, I asked about the ankles and knees in the posture I was taught. They just shrugged and said that's fine because humans are made for running, so the legs can tolerate that posture as long as the supporting muscles are strong enough . . . which they should be, if a person dances.

So, I'm wondering why people would choose to dance with a scarily bad spinal posture when they could just use the natural hinges in the metatarsals, ankles, and knees to achieve intention and to free space with zero back strain?

This also meshes into my obsession with a round embrace that relies as much on back-embracing arm contact behind as on chest-chest or belly-belly contact in front. That works just fine with the inverted cone, but totally fails for the S-curved spine because the back implodes.

Do instructors anywhere actually tell people to dance entirely with their chest, not at all with their back, and to stick out their chest and butt? Or is that caused by dancers seeing intention but not knowing the right way to generate it?

 

[opendoor]

..So, I'm wondering why people would choose to dance with a scarily bad spinal posture when they could just use the natural hinges in the metatarsals, ankles, and knees... Or is that caused by dancers seeing intention but not knowing the right way to generate it?

Unfortunately, the posture you and your physiotherapists recommend creates enormous pressure under the kneecap. Anyone who has sensitive kneecaps tries to avoid this pressure and shift their weight further back. We simply don't have ideal bodies anymore. Tell your "experts"!

 

[JournalInTime]

Unfortunately, the posture you and your physiotherapists recommend creates enormous pressure under the kneecap. Anyone who has sensitive kneecaps tries to avoid this pressure and shift their weight further back. We simply don't have ideal bodies anymore. Tell your "experts"!

Heh! I suspect that injury is a fair exception to any posture. The question becomes, "How many people have a body that cannot handle this posture?" I actually have not-great knees and this posture relieves pressure and pain for me, but it's possible that I have different muscular development after walking for transportation – sometimes for hours a day – over the past 40+ years. My ankle and knee joints are visibly bulked up with surrounding muscle (meaning I have ugly elephant legs and never wear shorts).

 

[opendoor]

And of course, it has to do with style. Watch great Orlando Paiva in his late 70s, he dances upright.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Do instructors anywhere actually tell people to dance entirely with their chest, not at all with their back, and to stick out their chest and butt? Or is that caused by dancers seeing intention but not knowing the right way to generate it?

Depends who you study with. For some, the leader should assume a rather natural, roughly vertical position but the follower should be slightly apilado, which clears space from the waist on down. That is roughly the "milonguero" approach to the embrace. It's what I prefer but not every follower can do it.

 

[pianistamediano]

In European marathons that I've been to, I see a lot of """good""" leaders who have a very pronounced (and painful-looking) anterior pelvic tilt. I can't tell if they lead with the chest or belly or solar plexus, but it seems to almost be a status symbol of sorts. As far as I can recall, their legs tend to be straight when they're first getting into the embrace, but they do bend when dancing of course.

I'm guessing this happens because they try to imitate good posture without understanding it enough, and therefore exaggerate its attributes.

 

[Miradamiranda]

For some, the leader should assume a rather natural, roughly vertical position but the follower should be slightly apilado, which clears space from the waist on down.

Frankly, when a guy expects me to constantly be in a plus 2 position while he gets to stay in a comfortable vertical position , I’ll either go vertical also or do max a plus 1 until he has apologized too many times for stepping on my toes that he finally adjusts. Or he better be really strong and I’ll give him a plus 3 to test his strength and technique. Then he can decide only to dance with followers max two thirds of his own weight till he learns better. A decent milonguero hold is from both sides plus one with either just an illusion or actual weight sharing. Sorry to disagree. But it’s REALLY painful to be pulled in tightly to a vertical leader who hasn’t learned good posture, and then be expected to do ochos or any kind of pivots. If he just gives me milonguero-ochos with zero pivot, fine, but that’s rarely the case.

 

[Bailango]

I was taught that you assume a very vertical posture, with a nice line down the back of your head to your heels, as if flat against a wall behind you. Then you incline your entire body a little forward from the ankle, taking more weight onto your metatarsals for balance. If you need more intention, you soften your knees more to bring everything above knee level forward. Your spine has no bend in it anywhere. There is space down below because of the inverted-cone posture.

These are level of details most people are unaware of. That includes instructors too.

I can’t remember perfecting what works for me from one instructors. It has been combination of different instructors and my trial/error. What you describe is close to how I move except I put less weight on metatarsals and prefer a more straighter posture. I keep my spine in one pane (no bend). My weight is still forward. Metatarsals a still in play. I might be putting 50% to 75% less weight compared to how I understand what you wrote above.

I am seeing people sticking their chest out and often thrusting their rear-end back to create more space down below. Yet they are keeping their legs vertical.

This common issue. I see it all the time.

All forward intention is in the chest, and everything else (almost) is withdrawn. Their lumbar spine is unquestionably curved. As a result of this, many of them jut their chin out, too . . . their head is forward of their chest, curving their cervical spine as well.

Yes. But many are also unaware. Or they think that’s the right posture. I am always surprised no one corrected them.

I asked a chiropractor, a Pilates instructor, and a physiotherapist about this. They were unequivocal: The chest-out/rear-end-back curved spine is bad for your spinal health no matter how strong your core,

It isn’t comfortable either. My mantra is very simple. If something is not comfortable, stop and change. Physical uncomfort means you are stressing something the body a wrong way. I tend to be hyperware. Sometimes a partner (generally those who are much shorter) will push into me in a way that causes spine to break that single pane. Then I readjust. Some people will pressure or push into you wrong way. Unknowingly you compensate. Then after walking a few steps you realize.

and there is a nonzero risk of a vertebral compression or worse if you rotate in this posture . . . and of course we rotate all the time in tango.

Yeah but again you are talking about technique. Majority dances don’t know they should care about technique that is related to body mechanics. Though related we need to distinguish between technique for dancing and body mechanics. The right body mechanics technique is critical to maintain good healthy physique. That also means longer dancing life.

Because people too focused on technique are seen to lack musicality, the technique often gets conflated with artistry and musicality. Upto a point people can dance with improper technique and get away with it.

To be balanced, I asked about the ankles and knees in the posture I was taught. They just shrugged and said that's fine because humans are made for running, so the legs can tolerate that posture as long as the supporting muscles are strong enough . . . which they should be, if a person dances.

We adapt to a lot of postures that isn’t good for the body in the long run. Body is adaptable and we form bad habits. The risk is long term damage.

So, I'm wondering why people would choose to dance with a scarily bad spinal posture when they could just use the natural hinges in the metatarsals, ankles, and knees to achieve intention and to free space with zero back strain?

1. No one corrected or told them
2. This is not repeatedly stressed enough in classes.
3. They are unaware of what they are doing.
4. By compensating, they think that’s what the technique is. What they think is a fix, is the problem.

Sometimes in one on one, I have mentioned to dancers who incorrect posture makes dancing difficult. Tell them to try their way and then by keeping spine correct if they feel the difference. They do and might keep it right rest of the practica. After a few months I see them at a milonga and bad habit is back.

It is hard to break a habit once formed. A person needs to actively work to break it.

Do instructors anywhere actually tell people to dance entirely with their chest, not at all with their back, and to stick out their chest and butt?

There was a time long back it was common for instructors to teach and say lead with your chest and receive information with your chest. They didn’t talk about how the back or butt should be except in passing. Or ask to bend forward from hips (as a hinge) but keep the back straight. Or they would tell to lean in straight using metatarsals. People got this idea about lead with chest. And started doing things to make that happen. I don’t think instructors realized that by saying chest lead people were taking that to mean intent should come from chest and therefore try to project with the chest.

For more than decade and half, I haven’t seen much “lead with chest” being taught. By which I mean “lean in and chest is where the lead comes for”.

Or is that caused by dancers seeing intention but not knowing the right way to generate it?

Yea. That’s what is the bigger culprit.

 

[Bailango]

Unfortunately, the posture you and your physiotherapists recommend creates enormous pressure under the kneecap. Anyone who has sensitive kneecaps tries to avoid this pressure and shift their weight further back. We simply don't have ideal bodies anymore. Tell your "experts"!

Your technique (of posture) should be to avoid injury and pain. Dancing posture that stresses any part of the body isn’t right for you. You can very well dance without being weight forward on your metatarsals. Some people bring too much forward weight. Some only a bit. At 50 you can’t dance like at 25. At 75 you may not dance like at 50. Body changes, adaptability of body changes. Therefore how you dance (posture and body mechanics) changes. I have only seen one instructor address this in a workshop at length. And it wasn’t in tango. You can tell how unaware the teaching community.

 

[Bailango]

In European marathons that I've been to, I see a lot of """good""" leaders who have a very pronounced (and painful-looking) anterior pelvic tilt. I can't tell if they lead with the chest or belly or solar plexus, but it seems to almost be a status symbol of sorts. As far as I can recall, their legs tend to be straight when they're first getting into the embrace, but they do bend when dancing of course.

Am a bit surprise. That use to be more common in 2000s and then gradually disappeared.

I'm guessing this happens because they try to imitate good posture without understanding it enough, and therefore exaggerate its attributes.

This!! People try to emulate without understanding how body mechanics work.

 

[JournalInTime]

That includes instructors too.

Yes. I am fortunate to have a coach who is foremost a Pilates trainer. For instance, last night's work session was about 45 minutes of dance and 30 minutes of warmup/cooldown aimed at developing good posture and body awareness. That is the balance I prefer – though I'd be willing to bet the world is full of hotheads who would complain about that not being 100% dancing, just as they complain about floorcraft training not being 100% dancing.

I put less weight on metatarsals and prefer a more straighter posture.

Weighting is negotiable. The important bit is that intention or "lean" doesn't come from thrusting out the chest or rear-end, or hinging at the hips – any of which will eventually wreck you – but from an upright posture slightly more forward than the one you might use on the street, with an unbroken line from top to bottom.

I might be putting 50% to 75% less weight compared to how I understand what you wrote above.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not heavily forward on my metatarsals, either. My heel is still weighted. It's more a case of "enough weight over the metatarsals that I'm slightly forward of my street posture."

The right body mechanics technique is critical to maintain good healthy physique. That also means longer dancing life.

My coach calls it "sustainable dancing."

Because people too focused on technique are seen to lack musicality

That earns a triple eye-roll from me. It's precisely the opposite, of course. Technique enables musicality and enables you to push its limits, and musicality demands technique and forces you to push its limits. It's an eternal game of leapfrog, each element one-upping the other until you die or quit dancing.

When somebody tells me, "Well, so-and-so has great technique, but their musicality is nothing compared to mine!", what I hear is, "I have cruddy technique, so I'm going to deflect your attention from that by claiming to have a gift you cannot easily see in a better dancer." Most of the self-proclaimed "musical" dancers are flappy arm-leader types who stomp on the notes as if they're walking on ground swarming with biting ants, and assume that you "see" rather than feel musicality.

It is hard to break a habit once formed. A person needs to actively work to break it.

It is probably difficult to break bad postural habits in dance through dance or dance instruction. I think that's a job for a physical trainer, physical therapist, or other somatic professional . . . though as my opening note implied, that might be the same person as a dance coach, and take place concurrently with a dance lesson.

There was a time long back it was common for instructors to teach and say lead with your chest and receive information with your chest. They didn’t talk about how the back or butt should be except in passing.

Instruction has generally improved, but the back still gets less attention than it should.

When I think about how I dance, I realize that at the level of the torso, I transmit about 40% with my chest against my partner's, 40% with my back against their (closed-side) arm, 15% with my (closed-side) arm against their side and back, and maybe 5% with hand-to-hand compression on the open side. I do my best to use mainly the large surfaces of my body (chest and back), and to minimize arm implication. There is more to the picture: Of course I transmit globally with my displacements, occasionally with foot or leg contact, and even visually (especially in soltadas). I'd say that for me, global displacements and torso leads are close to 50/40 for me, with foot/leg and visual stuff picking up the last 8/2.

But . . . the back is a major part of the dance for me. People who implode their back and don't read my back are difficult to dance with indeed. So are people who can't respond to displacements as leads (the so-called "dynamic dance") and who take tiny, unresponsive, late steps, but that's another topic.

Or ask to bend forward from hips (as a hinge) but keep the back straight.

Ugh. I see lots of that here. It is far and away most popular among men of a certain age who decide to be self-taught "milongueros." And they all complain about their back.

People got this idea about lead with chest.

It isn't wrong – it might be 40% of the torso dance for me. But that's 40% of 40%, if you follow my math, and not everything or even most things.

Your technique (of posture) should be to avoid injury and pain.

Exactly! What's concerning is when people assume "no pain now means no injury ever." Lots of things are painless and will work for a few years, even a couple of decades. But as not one but three people I know discovered, rotate the wrong way while your back line isn't straight or you're hinging forward at the hips, and you'll be seeing a surgeon about your spinal column (probably T12/L1 or L5/S1).

Am a bit surprise. That use to be more common in 2000s and then gradually disappeared.

As you said, bad habits are hard to break. People who had those bad habits in 2000 probably still have them, if they haven't wrecked their back by now. And if they haven't wrecked their back by now, they're probably convinced they're fine, and maybe even infecting new dancers with their bad technique.

This!! People try to emulate without understanding how body mechanics work.

Again, I'm fortunate in my choice of coach. She literally hikes up pant legs to show me muscles and tendons, brings in anatomy textbooks to show why I should/shouldn't do specific things, and builds stretching and proprioception exercises into the dance class.

 

[TTanguero]

So are people who can't respond to displacements as leads (the so-called "dynamic dance") and who take tiny, unresponsive, late steps, but that's another topic.

Sign me up for that thread when you start it! For me, one of the biggest differences between a wonderful dance and a terrible one is whether the follower is able to accurately follow the size of a projection.