Tango Diaries

[itwillhappen]

I know some folks that don’t go to milongas and only do queer/alt/fusion events because they feel they don’t fit within this super machista culture. “Yeah, hate being treated like a creepy dude that can’t take a verbal no”.

It's also more about sparing the other person a "no" no, which is often perceived as unfriendly.

You don’t ever expect a woman to show up to a milonga with a non dancing chaperone aunt but if you don’t cabeceo someone properly you are made to feel like you’re smoking indoors or asked someone how much they make in salary.

The narrative is that the cabeceo, in ancient times, served to allow dances to be performed past the chaperone. Today, the cabeceo apparently serves to prevent unwanted dances in a socially acceptable way.

Other dances like salsa have different etiquettes that changed over time to fit US society a bit better —- women ask men a lot more, it is frowned upon to ask the partner for permission instead of her directly, walking someone off the dance floor feels creepy.

Then salsa is probably a different dance for a different group of dancers with a different age structure.

 

[itwillhappen]

So, with other words, it's not about ideology, but simply about market strategies.

There is no organization in tango – except perhaps the one behind "BA Tango" – that can set up a relevant marketing budget. Everything is based on small-scale advertising, formerly with flyers, now with Facebook posts.

 

[itwillhappen]

Here is a newbie question. Why are things like women leading not a problem but things like cabeceo something that feels must be strictly enforced?

Cui bono?

 

[Brummbaer]

Then salsa is probably a different dance for a different group of dancers with a different age structure.

I think that was true; it may be true in some locales today. It's certainly true that AT, nowadays, attracts (attracted?) an older demographic - for many reasons. However I do detect, from reports, an emerging younger set. There's one (or maybe two) such in a nearby university town. I've also heard, or read, reports of younger groups in the US. I guess the 1980/90's repeat. Salsa also sometimes seems to have moved to an older (more middle-aged, or heading there) set of predominantly solos, but maybe there's still flux there.

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Agree about the ancient cabeceo/mirada, but whether it's relevant nowadays to sparing that unfriendly 'no' is a moot point and depends on the group (we're all friends and acquaintances, so no one needs to play games, especially ladies who don't want to spend an evening ironing chairs). I'd say more that some want to enforce it as an intrinsic aspect of AT - its 'culture'. It marks us out as 'different' (superior, understand the hidden secrets and intricacies, etc). Others just consider AT yet another dance, so such attachments become irrelevant. BsAs is far away in another country.

 

[Bailango]

Agree about the ancient cabeceo/mirada, but whether it's relevant nowadays to sparing that unfriendly 'no' is a moot point and depends on the group (we're all friends and acquaintances, so no one needs to play games, especially ladies who don't want to spend an evening ironing chairs). I'd say more that some want to enforce it as an intrinsic aspect of AT - its 'culture'. It marks us out as 'different' (superior, understand the hidden secrets and intricacies, etc). Others just consider AT yet another dance, so such attachments become irrelevant. BsAs is far away in another country.

Cabaceo is incredibly efficient when everyone uses it. It has nothing to do with culture. It is very practical. Rather than navigating through crowds, chairs, and obstacles you want ask someone you want to quickly.

In salsa, I can’t count number of times I have been beaten by half a step or a step. Not me but all other leaders. The worse part is once you turn around, all dancers you would have asked are already taken. That can be frustrating when a right song comes up.

I know you like to rail against cabaceo as some relic of old BsAs. To me it more about uniformity and practical benefits. Yes what irks me are the followers who frown of being asked verbally but will accept verbal invitations anyways. That kind of ambiguity is not good. If a right song comes along do I try to cabaceo, while some cute in to ask verbally or do I go ask verbally. The last part is rhetorical since less 95% of my invitations are cabaceo.

 

[Bailango]

Other dances like salsa have different etiquettes that changed over time to fit US society a bit better —- women ask men a lot more, it is frowned upon to ask the partner for permission instead of her directly, walking someone off the dance floor feels creepy.

I don’t share your experiences in salsa. Women ask in tango too. Whether women ask a lot more in salsa is relative. Relative to WCS? No way. Days might go by in salsa before I experience a woman asking. In salsa and tango it is the same - a woman is more likely to ask if she knows you. Women who know you will hardly ask because they know you will ask them. That’s common in both salsa and tango. At WCS women ask almost as much as men.

I don’t see anyone at tango asking for partner’s permission either. Rather it is harder to ask for a permission of someone else when invitation is by cabaceo.

No, walking someone off dance floor does feel creepy in any social dance. Unless your definition of walking off means hand in hand formally. More often without interlude like cortina, leader is too eager to grab a follower for the next dance.

 

[opendoor]

..I know you like to rail against cabaceo as some relic of old BsAs..

That was me. A key difference between the salsa and tango communities is the role of native dancers. In salsa, at least in my city, Latinos dominate the scene. In tango, on the other hand, there are hardly any Porteños compared to the majority of local dancers. Therefore, the statement "but in Buenos Aires they do it that way" carries too much weight. However, anyone who has been to Buenos Aires has seen that tango there is much more diverse than is claimed in the diaspora.

 

[Brummbaer]

Cabaceo is incredibly efficient when everyone uses it.

It can work when the environment is comducive. I'm not in BsAs. Lighting and seating are rarely conducive here (the places I dance) for it to be a 'standard'.

It has nothing to do with culture.

It has everything to do with culture of the locale. Here it's not the common means of requesting a dance with someone - except for some milongas. As pointed out, there are variants for other dances, but nothing like the emphasis as for AT.

Rather than navigating through crowds, chairs, and obstacles you want ask someone you want to quickly.

It's because of the 'crowds' not sitting, and poorly arranged seating for that objective, that it isn't always appropriate. In one case, it's meaningless to cabeceo the back of someone's head sat in front of you, or around a corner (L-shaped dancefloor). And that seating is at a milonga arranged by people who frequent BsAs! In fairness, limited alternatives in the space.

To me it more about uniformity and practical benefits.

As has been noted, milongas are not homogeneous. However, if that's the game in play, then, as a visitor, respect it. It's about knowing when and where to use it. Circumstances where inappropriate have been noted and discussed, but they may not apply to your situation.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No, walking someone off dance floor does feel creepy in any social dance.

Don't see why. By the way, we were instructed by a former teacher that proper behavior involves leading the woman off the floor and back to her seat. Arm-in-arm if you like. That is, you're not supposed to dump them in the middle of the floor. That's the protocol, at least. Most women today don't really care and usually find their way back to their seat.

 

[Rabbit]

However, anyone who has been to Buenos Aires has seen that tango there is much more diverse than is claimed in the diaspora.

It is, but you have to go there with open eyes and get away from the touristic circuit and see.

 

[opendoor]

...walking someone off dance floor does feel creepy in any social dance..

Bailango, you don't really dance in shorts in summer, do you? But you are stylistically in good company.
Every continental boy learns at the beginning of his first BR course that his dance partner should be escorted back from the dance floor. That's simply salon etiquette. The tango codigos also include this, but limited to the area with the tables. However, since most milongas aren't formal milongas, but merely práctilongas or what ever sort of a práctica, this often is omitted.
And a Happy New Year to all of you!

(B. B. King)

 

[Bailango]

It can work when the environment is comducive. I'm not in BsAs. Lighting and seating are rarely conducive here (the places I dance) for it to be a 'standard'.

But it does work in sub optimal conditions too as long as everyone is seeking and attentive to cabaceos. Most of our milongas are in sub optimal settings.

It has everything to do with culture of the locale. Here it's not the common means of requesting a dance with someone - except for some milongas. As pointed out, there are variants for other dances, but nothing like the emphasis as for AT.

If you say except for milongas, what are the other settings?

It's because of the 'crowds' not sitting, and poorly arranged seating for that objective, that it isn't always appropriate. In one case, it's meaningless to cabeceo the back of someone's head sat in front of you, or around a corner (L-shaped dancefloor). And that seating is at a milonga

A lot of our milongas have L shape seating even when the room is rectangular.

As has been noted, milongas are not homogeneous. However, if that's the game in play, then, as a visitor, respect

As a visitor I have always started with Cabaceo. Never been a problem. If as a visitor I start with verbal asking, it is a huge risk.

 

[Bailango]

Corrections

If a right song comes along do I try to cabaceo, while some one cuts in to ask verbally or do I go ask verbally. The last part is rhetorical since less 95% of my invitations are cabaceo.

…while someone cuts in to …. since 95% of my invitations are cabaceo

No, walking someone off dance floor does feel creepy in any social dance.

…dance floor does not feel creepy….

 

[Bailango]

That was me. A key difference between the salsa and tango communities is the role of native dancers. In salsa, at least in my city, Latinos dominate the scene. In tango, on the other hand, there are hardly any Porteños compared to the majority of local dancers. Therefore, the statement "but in Buenos Aires they do it that way" carries too much weight. However, anyone who has been to Buenos Aires has seen that tango there is much more diverse than is claimed in the diaspora.

Worse offenders of asking verbally in our scene are actually the Argentinian men. The older and younger alike.

 

[Bailango]

Don't see why.

It was a typo. missed “NOT”. See above.