Teacher rating - criteria?

I have been thinking about this especially in context of the other thread.

For a beginning AT dancer the main criterion to rate a teacher on should be the students: Are the students at milongas? Do you like the way they dancer there? Do they seem to be having fun/be competent? Are they able to follow the line of dance/flow of the dancefloor or are they stuck in the middle of the dancefloor or a corner? Do they dance a style that is attractive to the student? Nothing else really matters. So my advice would be to go to a local milonga, look at people, and ask the ones that look "good" to them who they recommend as a teacher for a beginner. This is not really about dancing skills, but about the skill to transmit it to students and make them comfortable and confident for social dancing.

Gssh
 
Dave Bailey said:
And whilst, yes, there's a subjective element to this, there must also be some more objective measures we can use.

So how can we judge? What criteria would you use?
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Here is what complicates all of this. There is teaching privates vs workshops, beginners vs intermediates vs advanced, and finally there are different personalities (and quirks) which also effect which teachers work well with which students.

Example of one of my quirks: Several times I've had a teacher tell me to just do "what is natural", and so I do what is natural for me, and they say, "No, that's not correct". Then they proceed to tell me what the "natural" movement is. At this point, it's difficult to take anything the teacher says after that seriously, if they don't even understand that what's natural for one person isn't necessarily natural for someone else.

OK, back to the topic, what "objective" criteria are common across the board.

  • Ability to communicate/explain in a clear, unambiguous way.
  • Ability to communicate in a way that keeps people motivated and positive.
  • Knowledgeable on the subject being taught (they actually know what they are talking about).
  • Being able to focus on the topic/skill that they are trying to teach. The pattern should not be the focus.
  • Being able to observe and diagnose problems that the students are encountering.
  • Being able to adjust/adapt to the level of the class.
  • Making it clear (ahead of time) what the prerequisites actually are (not just intermediate or advanced).
  • Being able to explain the lead (and follow), as opposed to just explaining the step.
 
Dave Bailey said:
In Tango? Beginner followers? Asking a teacher? I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen...
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Hmm, read again - Zoops didn't make any mention of "beginner" followers. Warning - when reading the para. again. it'll be like those email you get asking you to read the paragraph and count the amount of "f's" you can see. But trust me, the word "beginner" won't be there. :-)

Zoopsia59 said:
I actually went to one milonga that was very sparsely attended (less than a dozen people!) with about a 4 to 1 ratio of followers to leaders, and the instructor who had taught workshops all day did not dance with ANY of the followers sitting out... not even the ones who had attended the workshop. He only danced with his partner.
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Dave Bailey said:
Anyway, can we get back on-topic? Any more suggestions for objective assessment criteria for "teacher ability"?
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One's suggestion can be so totally different from the masses. A bit like a film, a glass of wine etc. One can but try and see what suits them. If it works, good. If not, move on. That said, what should be universal - with all teachers - is sympathy towards the student and not making them feel like an beginner even though they are. Crikey, this beginning to sound like deja vu Hasn't there been a similar Thread in the past?
 
bordertangoman said:
iN y experience of teaching tango, a good teacher has be like a zoo keeper; you have a multitude of different animals in your class each with its own interpretation of what you say and with its own way moving; eg the giraffe likes to move elegantly along; the rhino wants to plod rhythmically and the hippos wallow;the seals want to tricks; the orang-utan are after connection, and the jackals are trying to score, whilst the monkeys have Attention Deficit Disorder and will start monkeying around after 2 minutes of doing the exercise. So the zoo keeper has to figure out what each animal needs as well as what all the animals together can cope with.
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something such...and it would take years of only doing just the teaching part to figure out what every animal needs and be able to give that...
 
To be honest...I've become un-fond of a "black and white" completely objective approach to things. The things you may want (versus need) as you start are going to be different than what you want/need later on and you need to leave an open mind to your changing needs as you gain experience, and hopefully smarter at recognizing what you want versus what you need.

Most students when they start seem to have an idea of what they think they want and they go find a teacher that they think is doing what they want (regardless of if it what they need) and I don't think you can really stop that.

You may tell someone at the start they need to look for X and Y, but if that doesn't make any sense to where they are at that time, you won't convince them.

And I think it's extremely difficult for both teachers and students to take a neutral approach. Students go to a teacher and get told X and Y is correct and then go to another teacher and told it isn't, and both may be right for the way they are teaching...and without the understanding and experience to know what they need out of a teacher at that time, it only gets confusing for a beginner- and if the teacher reinforces an absolute attitude, that generally rubs off on the student.

I'd say at the very least, a person should look at a teacher to see if they are teaching in a lead and follow format (and teaching that open, closed or whatever not being an absolute) and that their way of teaching it makes sense (even if it is a different technique than some other person taught).

I would also look for teachers that can talk about the social aspects of going out and dancing- floorcraft, ettiquette and so forth since AT is a very social dance it only makes sense that a teacher needs to know how to teach the students to deal with a social setting and so they also need to be aquainted with social dancing. This is one of those "needs" rather than a want...most students probably aren't thinking about this when they start dancing.

Other things I find important now are...teachers that are not trashing other teachers in the area because that's disrespectful, and are respectful of technique differences (and styles) in tango especially if they specialize in only one (and like I said, beginners generally aren't thinking about different styles or have the experience to know the difference and why it's ok). This may not be a need or a want of the student, but how the teacher speaks of others in the community to me says a lot about their MO and how much "politicking" will be present in their group of students and their general interaction with the local social community and I don't personally liek to be a part of "bad vibes" if I can help it.
 
Gssh said:
For a beginning AT dancer the main criterion to rate a teacher on should be the students: Are the students at milongas? Do you like the way they dancer there? Do they seem to be having fun/be competent? Are they able to follow the line of dance/flow of the dancefloor or are they stuck in the middle of the dancefloor or a corner? Do they dance a style that is attractive to the student? Nothing else really matters. So my advice would be to go to a local milonga, look at people, and ask the ones that look "good" to them who they recommend as a teacher for a beginner. This is not really about dancing skills, but about the skill to transmit it to students and make them comfortable and confident for social dancing.
Gssh
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This is all very good advice, but the bit about whether they use LOD or get stuck in the middle or a corner is only useful for evaluating the leader. You can't tell much about the followers' teachers from where they end up dancing on the floor since they have no control of that. In fact, its pretty hard for an untrained eye (which a beginner looking for a teacher would be) to tell much about whether a follower is any good. A beginner observer wouldn't know what to look for that is independent of how the follower is led.

So if you are watching followers to analyze teachers, make sure you watch the follower with various partners, and pay close attention to the postural and movement elements that she can do correctly in spite of a bad lead.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
This is all very good advice, but the bit about whether they use LOD or get stuck in the middle or a corner is only useful for evaluating the leader. You can't tell much about the followers' teachers from where they end up dancing on the floor since they have no control of that. In fact, its pretty hard for an untrained eye (which a beginner looking for a teacher would be) to tell much about whether a follower is any good. A beginner observer wouldn't know what to look for that is independent of how the follower is led.

So if you are watching followers to analyze teachers, make sure you watch the follower with various partners, and pay close attention to the postural and movement elements that she can do correctly in spite of a bad lead.
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Something I like to do at milongas is to sit next to a beginner and ask “who do you like” Most of the time they’ll pick the most unskilled dancer on the floor. Why? Because they know nothing about tango so when they see the couple doing all the jumps and kicks they think that’s tango.
Try it at your next milonga you’ll be amused at who they pick.

I think most will to go to milongas that offer a beginner class before the dance and that’s how they get introduced into tango. I will always recommend taking privates over group especially for a beginner. The question is still who should he/she take lessons from? I think it’s a matter of luck to choose a good instructor or a matter of bad luck to choose one bad instructor after another before you either quit or are lucky enough to end up with that one good instructor that you bond with.

It really makes me happy to watch a beginner progress into a good dancer over time I will always complement them and give them encouragement.
It also saddens me to see a dancer with potential fall into the endless kicking and jumping and never really evolve into a good dancer.

(Previous thread)
When I see women turn to the dark side “endless kicking and jumping” I stop asking them to dance.
 
newbie said:
You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.
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Yes and No
Remember people have different skill levels. I know people who take endless private lessons from my instructor and they can only progress to a certain point based on personal talent. So you can’t base an opinion of a teacher on how good someone dances that he taught but you can base it on how far along the person has progressed based on his skill level. You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. So yes maybe that person isn’t the greatest dancer on the floor but he will have a better understanding of how tango is danced thanks to the instructor.
 
newbie said:
You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.
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Not every pupil will crack it. If, say, you're studying one who simply does not have the gift of the dance (i.e. destined to remain at a below average level) and then go onto study another who trains with the same teacher but exhibits signs of betterness but just above average would you then judge that teacher to be of only average level also? Pupils are not laboratory clones of their teacher and so there will be varying levels/standards/abilities in any one given class. Ane reality is, only a teeny-weeny percentage (to my eyes, that is) manage to make it to the "not bad in fact" grade. And so no, I certainly would not advise a beginner to judge the teacher by the student. Rather to judge the teacher by what it is they get out of the class for themselves. Also, speaking to the teacher beforehand. Do you get a sense that she/he sounds like a stock market trading mortgage broker? Or do they have qualities that remind you of your favourite teacher at primary school? Abilities should, first and foremost, be judged by the character of the teacher. There have been some fabulous dancing performers who when in a classroom situation haven't a clue how to control a very large class or so emotionally castrated they lose attachment to the very person that they are teaching. I witnessed a personal trainer with his client in the gym yesterday first - upstairs - spending too much time watching me stretch and then later - downstairs - having a good ole goss with his colleague while his tiring client started to move the weight in such a way that I thought: ouch, ouch, ouch. Sooooo tempted was I to march over and snatch the damned thing from her - if only to save her spine from any future agony. But no, he was the one getting her dosh and so...
 
Heather2007 said:
Not every pupil will crack it. If, say, you're studying one who simply does not have the gift of the dance
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Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught. If he does all this while executing flashy steps, then that's an even worse sign. ANy leader who has been taking long enough to learn the fancy stuff should have learned how to properly and respectfully navigate the floor by then.

Doesn't help with analyzing followers, but tells you a lot about the leaders and the instruction they're getting.
 
hbboogie1 said:
you can’t base an opinion of a teacher on how good someone dances that he taught but you can base it on how far along the person has progressed based on his skill level. You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. So yes maybe that person isn’t the greatest dancer on the floor but he will have a better understanding of how tango is danced thanks to the instructor.
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yes.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught. If he does all this while executing flashy steps, then that's an even worse sign. ANy leader who has been taking long enough to learn the fancy stuff should have learned how to properly and respectfully navigate the floor by then.

.
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So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? I would echo what Heather said above; students do not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher. i think floorcraft goes out the window for a lot of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.
 
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