Teachers: do you dance at Milongas?

[bordertangoman]

I know much of the music quite well, and so many of the Golden Age songs have a very simple structure, so the music is rarely a suprise. That isn't the issue (it might be for others, but not for me). The issue for me is what element of my tango vocabulary to use at any point.

Not suprisingly, I am much better on an empty floor. ...

me too, other dancers are such a pain in the a**.



footnote: maybe the answer is just to become as good as Chicho then you can dance on an empty floor


(and people will pay you for it too!)

 

[tangomonkey]

I know much of the music quite well, and so many of the Golden Age songs have a very simple structure, so the music is rarely a suprise. That isn't the issue (it might be for others, but not for me). The issue for me is what element of my tango vocabulary to use at any point.

Tango structure is indeed very simple. Don't be so quick to assume because you know there are A & B sections and the phrases come every four bars you know the music. The constant phrasing and rephrasing of melodies, the use of counter themes, rhythmic and thematic development, the use of instruments eg, the sudden mood change that happens when a bandoneon plays instead of the violin, etc.. And the elaboration and variation in all of these things within the same piece is not simple. If you do not hear these things you do not know the music. (Am not saying you don't - just making a statement)

Every leader goes through what you are talking about. I would once again recommend simplicity. Basic steps and pivots (ochos or turns). Dancing in a crowd is hard. Learn to downsize your steps. If you feel the need to follow that surging bandoneon as it takes over the melody, take a big side step if there isn't room to go forwards...There is always space somewhere.

 

[bordertangoman]

IMO UKD you need to go to some good milongas (usually weekenders)where there is a lot of dance floor time and followers of a reasonable standard that have some time to help. I think a lot of the learning of AT is within the dance itself and there is no way you can substitute that.

this is true the Matrix tango upload has not yet been invented....

 

[dchester]

O goodness, I wasn't suggesting that El Choclo would be the place to start!

I know Bahia Blanca well, but (and don't be offended, I don't mean to be rude) saying 'just move with the flow and pause of the music' is like a red rag to a bull. Move: How? Do you mean simple walking steps that match the slow pulse? How many? Then what?

I have a mental picture (but it's too vague to be any real help) of the characteristics of such a dance, but when it comes to practicalities, I run into problems very quickly.

The music has just started: I'm on the floor and I hear the first eight bars: all very lyrical with 2 x 2-bar call and response, but then when the tune is repeated (which is just as we all move off) the character changes dramatically, for now we have 2 bars of ric tic tic, and then two bars of lyrical response. He does it again, ending the eight bar phrase with a 'tiddly-pom'. So, what do I lead? It sure feels, as I walk off, that I am about to take my partner over a cliff.

Do you see?

I see, and while I probably could explain what I might do to a given song, the reason has to do with what I feel (which might be completely different from what you feel).

Basically, there are several layers (or variables) that are used in deciding how/when to step. Some variables are specific to the music, like the rhythm of the song, the energy, and the emotion of the song. Other variables are the followers embrace (the better the embrace, the slower I dance, and use more pauses). Also the rest of the people on the floor/floorcraft will have an influence (on how big or small I need to dance).

There is more than one right answer (of course IMO, there are lots of wrong answers too).

If I get the time, I'll find a song to use, and attempt to explain some of this (just looking at the music, especially, the rhythm).

 

[AndaBien]

... The issue for me is what element of my tango vocabulary to use at any point...

The point is there is no specific answer to that question. There are always a variety of elements that can be used, and every element can be used with endless variety and subtlety.

For the sake of navigation you have to know how to use your steps: to stop, to turn around, to reverse direction, to go L or R. That will most likely take hours on the floor - a crowded one.

For the sake of your partner, when navigation is all going smoothly, there are no set answers. You have to make them up yourself, and (sorry if anyone is offended by this) I think that is easier if you use very simple steps. The more you simplify your footwork, the more complexity and richness you can put into the connection with your partner.

Added: Making it up yourself is the thing that gives your dance personality. Your personality.

 

[tangomonkey]

...I probably could explain what I might do to a given song, the reason has to do with what I feel (which might be completely different from what you feel).

And what you (and all of us) feel will be different the next time too, for many different reasons.

 

[tangomonkey]

UKDancer, the advice you are being given by the very experienced leaders here is the same they gave me 8-10 months ago . Now I am echoing them - I must have made some progress.

Think carefully about what they are saying and practice dancing small. Even the 8cb can be done in a tight circle. That was an exercise the teacher had us do in a class I attended recently. We varied our steps, took pauses, but always moved in a tight circle. It was eye-opening.

 

[UKDancer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ3wgo9jLc

ok; here's Chicho's interpretation; he's fairly restrained and uses pauses, and picks up on the responses occaisionally. does this help?

Er, no! Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but I find his dancing completely hideous. He starts, as you say in a fairly restrained way, but you can't be suggesting that the substantive content is simple? It's delivered with very considerable assurance and technique, but it gets sillier and sillier, culminating in that grotesque both feet sacada where he quite literally jumps AT his partner. Its a bloody good job she got out of the way!

Another way of looking at it is that I obviously feel Di Sarli rather differently. If I danced like that at any milonga I have ever attended, I would expect to be asked to leave immediately (unless, of course, I had been hired to produce just that performance at half-time).

 

[JohnEm]

Er, no! Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but I find his dancing completely hideous. He starts, as you say in a fairly restrained way, but you can't be suggesting that the substantive content is simple? It's delivered with very considerable assurance and technique, but it gets sillier and sillier, culminating in that grotesque both feet sacada where he quite literally jumps AT his partner. Its a bloody good job she got out of the way!

There's hope for you yet!
I'm with you. And it certainly has no place as a model for social dancing.

There's been lots of advice so I won't repeat but will add that in keeping
it simple keep the practice music simple too which to me also means
rhythmically consistent.

Later, when you're ready Bahia Blanca, is a favourite of teachers to try
and interpret. But dance what you hear rather than analyse.

 

[UKDancer]

Thank you to everyone with their suggestions. I'm dancing tonight, so may have a chance to try one or two ideas. I hadn't intended to hijack the thread, as my frustrations are obviously off-topic, so sorry about that!

 

[dchester]

Er, no! Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but I find his dancing completely hideous. He starts, as you say in a fairly restrained way, but you can't be suggesting that the substantive content is simple? It's delivered with very considerable assurance and technique, but it gets sillier and sillier, culminating in that grotesque both feet sacada where he quite literally jumps AT his partner. Its a bloody good job she got out of the way!

Another way of looking at it is that I obviously feel Di Sarli rather differently. If I danced like that at any milonga I have ever attended, I would expect to be asked to leave immediately (unless, of course, I had been hired to produce just that performance at half-time).

IMO, it started out fine, but as it was a performance, he did some "showing off" later on.

Here's what I hope is a better example (the showing off at the end is much more restrained).

[yt]SodIdnzP4gI[/yt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SodIdnzP4gI

 

[bordertangoman]

Er, no! Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but I find his dancing completely hideous. He starts, as you say in a fairly restrained way, but you can't be suggesting that the substantive content is simple? It's delivered with very considerable assurance and technique, but it gets sillier and sillier, culminating in that grotesque both feet sacada where he quite literally jumps AT his partner. Its a bloody good job she got out of the way!

Another way of looking at it is that I obviously feel Di Sarli rather differently. If I danced like that at any milonga I have ever attended, I would expect to be asked to leave immediately (unless, of course, I had been hired to produce just that performance at half-time).

okay you have missed the point a bit; I couldnt give a monkeys about what he does ; its about how he's using the music; If you cant see how he's interpreting it and responding to different things in the music; is he slowing picking up a beat, a phrase, flowing; Its something you can apply to any youtube video; its an interpretation which if you understand it gives you possibilities even if its just walking pausing and ochos.

You dont have to like his moves or his musicality you just have to be able to understand how he's interpreting it and see how you might do the same ofr different.

try dancing when he dances, pause when he pauses,

 

[tangomonkey]

okay you have missed the point a bit; I couldnt give a monkeys about what he does ; its about how he's using the music; If you cant see how he's interpreting it and responding to different things in the music; is he slowing picking up a beat, a phrase, flowing; Its something you can apply to any youtube video; its an interpretation which if you understand it gives you possibilities even if its just walking pausing and ochos.

You dont have to like his moves or his musicality you just have to be able to understand how he's interpreting it and see how you might do the same ofr different.

try dancing when he dances, pause when he pauses,

Yes! And for the same reasons, I posted him dancing El Choclo. At his best he is remarkably musical and nuanced. Doesn't mean I want to dance like him though.

And please refrain from using my anatomy in such a manner I am tangomonkey you know...

 

[UKDancer]

okay you have missed the point a bit; I couldnt give a monkeys about what he does

If that was your point then I take it, but I had asked whether anyone could

suggest anything on, say, YouTube, that would be a fair reflection of 'just a simple satisfying dance' rather than some clever, showy stuff.

So my reaction was inevitable, in that context, and I happen to find his dancing hideous too (which is a personal response, and I'm not trying to convert anyone else).

Actually, the things you mention I can do quite well already - my difficulty lies at a more basic level: what to lead in the first place. The thing I do best is to use rhythm to shape my movement, but having stepped off that cliff, it is quite difficult to do Di Sarli 'elegance' in freefall.

 

[dchester]

my difficulty lies at a more basic level: what to lead in the first place. The thing I do best is to use rhythm to shape my movement, but having stepped off that cliff, it is quite difficult to do Di Sarli 'elegance' in freefall.

I may have misunderstood what you are asking about. Is your question (more or less) when to do an ocho, vs some other step (like a pasada, or walking)?