Teachers: do you dance at Milongas?

[AndaBien]

... was talking to a female teacher who was very clear that when she taught the students received her undivided attention and when she danced she would only dance with leaders she wanted to dance with. She gave reasons; she didnt want to be pulled about by inexperienced dancers, and she regarded dancing tango as an intimate dance and would only dance with men she felt comfortable with...

I feel the same way. I'm only a teacher when I'm in class. On the social dance floor I'm just a dancer, and have no obligation that other dancers don't have. I do like to dance with beginners who show devotion and potential, to help them learn, but that has nothing to do with me being a teacher. I would do that anyway.

If teaching was my business, it would make business sense to work the room.

 

[bordertangoman]

I have noticed that female teachers are far more likely to have this view than male teachers. I think it comes from self preservation. Some leaders can be very rough and at the end of the day they have got to take care of themselves.

that was one of her points; if you have to correct someone you're dancing with then it becomes a practica.

I don't think that it is appropriate for a teacher to have taken responsibility for the instruction of any student, and then not be prepared to dance with that person because of the standard of the student's dancing. If there is something unacceptable about the student's behaviour, separate from their dance ability, that is different, but that might call into question why the teacher is accepting their money, and continuing their instruction.

I think this begs the question as to when a beginner should be advised to go to a milonga
and to create practilongas so they are sufficiently skilled.

 

[bordertangoman]

I feel the same way. I'm only a teacher when I'm in class. On the social dance floor I'm just a dancer, and have no obligation that other dancers don't have. I do like to dance with beginners who show devotion and potential, to help them learn, but that has nothing to do with me being a teacher. I would do that anyway.

If teaching was my business, it would make business sense to work the room.

as i said I'm a tango tart..I'll dance with anyone..not strictly true, only on my home turf, but when going to other milongas I aim to get those where the lowest standard dancer is good enough and the rest are wonderful..

 

[Dave Bailey]

that's why you need an English gentleman, chivalrous to the end, and treats all women as ladies worthy of dancing with...

That's it, keep on telling them that

i was talking to a female teacher who was very clear that when she taught the students received her undivided attention and when she danced she would only dance with leaders she wanted to dance with.

Depends on the location I guess. If it's at "any random milonga" where she's simply attending purely as a normal customer, that's fair enough (although does that mean she'd actually refuse one of her students if he asked for a dance?)

But if she's attending her local milonga, where her students are, or if she's commercially involved in that milonga, she's not "just a customer" any more.

While it is a viewpoint different to my own, I can understand this even if it might seem elitist.

I can sort of understand it, but I don't like the idea that teachers don't even work the room at their own milongas, seems bloody obvious to me that this is good practice.

 

[bordertangoman]

Depends on the location I guess. If it's at "any random milonga" where she's simply attending purely as a normal customer, that's fair enough (although does that mean she'd actually refuse one of her students if he asked for a dance?)


I can sort of understand it.

Good. I think a metaphor or ist an anaolgy would be;

Yes I'm your driving instructor, but I'm not giving you the keys to my jag.........

 

[AndaBien]

...Yes I'm your driving instructor, but I'm not giving you the keys to my jag.........

... Once you learn how to drive, I'll be happy to.

 

[pascal]

I feel the same way. I'm only a teacher when I'm in class. On the social dance floor I'm just a dancer, and have no obligation that other dancers don't have. I do like to dance with beginners who show devotion and potential, to help them learn, but that has nothing to do with me being a teacher. I would do that anyway.

At the afterclass practice, if I invite a beginner then I will take much care and do everything I can to let her have a comfortable dance where she won't feel she's a beginner. But If a beginner comes to me and asks for a dance, then I will dance like I do with my usual partners, and probably she'll feel she's quite far from their level. Too often I've heard newcoming followers stating things like "I have the rare gift of being able to follow very well the very good leaders", I don't want my students to have this illusion.

 

[bordertangoman]

I've heard newcoming followers stating things like "I have the rare gift of being able to follow very well the very good leaders", I don't want my students to have this illusion.

I certainly disillusion mine :tongue:

 

[Zoopsia59]

I have noticed that female teachers are far more likely to have this view than male teachers. I think it comes from self preservation. Some leaders can be very rough and at the end of the day they have got to take care of themselves.

In my experience, leaders who are rough at the milonga are just as rough in classes/lessons/practicas.

Which begs the question:
Why hasn't the teacher who refuses to dance socially with that student because of his roughness addressed the problem in their lesson?

How long is it reasonable to turn down your own student because they are dangerous when you have better opportunity than anyone else to correct the problems that make them dangerous?

 

[dchester]

In my experience, leaders who are rough at the milonga are just as rough in classes/lessons/practicas.

I think I'm much worse in classes, than I am at a milonga (assuming the class is on something I don't regularly do). At a practica, I'm somewhere in between, as I might be trying some (relatively) new stuff out. At a milonga, I'm doing stuff that I believe I know how to do (although I've been wrong before).

 

[Gssh]

I don't think that it is appropriate for a teacher to have taken responsibility for the instruction of any student, and then not be prepared to dance with that person because of the standard of the student's dancing.

Whoa- this is a pretty high standard you are setting for teachers. I teach, and i certainly take responsibility for the instruction of the students in my 100 series class, but if i have to pick people to be on my team for a research project i am very, very unlikely to pick one of them.

Similary, if i take a class with somebody i do not expect them to consider me somebody that they want to dance socially with.

I don't think it is an issue with "dangerous" - it is an issue of "fun". I expect a teacher to want to have fun when they go out to a milonga. And i think that even if they are willing to dance with their students the whole politics of it are messy.

Lets assume a midisized, completely balanced milonga: 30 leaders, 30 followers. Lets be optimistic, and say that 10 of the potential partners are on the teachers level, and 20 are students. If the milonga lasts 4 hours, and the teacher dances almost every tanda this would be about 16 tandas. If the teacher dances half and half (8 matches, 8 students), there are still 12 students they have not danced with, and that will complain/ be unhappy. Even if the teacher only dances with students there will still be 4 that they have not danced with. And this is under really optimal conditions - if the milonga is bigger it gets worse. If the milonga is less balanced it gets worse. If the teacher wants to rest for a tanda or dance two tandas with somebody they especially enjoy dancing wiht it gets worse.

And given the problems and gossip it can create when a teacher dances with some of their students and not all of them - i completely understand why some of them institute a "i never dance with students at milongas" policy.

Gssh

 

[Gssh]

... Once you learn how to drive, I'll be happy to.

Remind my to get in touch with you when i go to the next atlanta tango festival - i have a drivers licence .

For me, i have a lot of friends who are perfectly capable drivers, and there are maybe 2 of them that i would lend my car to (actually i have had girlfriends that i would not have given my keys to)

Gssh

 

[UKDancer]

Whoa- this is a pretty high standard you are setting for teachers. I teach, and i certainly take responsibility for the instruction of the students in my 100 series class, but if i have to pick people to be on my team for a research project i am very, very unlikely to pick one of them.

Actually, I don't think that's a fair analogy. You work on your research project with your most promising PhD students, not the undergraduates (less still, the ones still in High School), but I'm talking about at a Milonga - just an ordinary local Milonga, not some special high level activity for the elite.

Any social dance event, whether tango or any other partner dance, is likely to attract a variety of people and a wide range of dance standards. At some, the etiquette requires that you are ready to dance with almost anyone, and there should be a 'good' reason to ever refuse an invitation to dance, while at others, we can be more selective.

I accept that if you are just attending (on payment of the entrance fee) a milonga that you have had no hand in organising, you have a free hand, but if your students happen to be present, I don't think that it is acceptable to just to refuse to dance with them at all. I accept the politics, and the numbers issue at a well attended dance, and I'm sure that it can sometimes be a little awkward, but once you have ceased to be just another social dancer, and have become a member of the locality's dance teachers, your position changes as soon as you are in the company of your own students.

I rarely dance socially, in the styles I teach, for this very reason, and then the 'problem' doesn't arise.

 

[AndaBien]

...but once you have ceased to be just another social dancer, and have become a member of the locality's dance teachers, your position changes as soon as you are in the company of your own students...

Why does it change? If I offer a class for $10 and a student attends and pays the price, I do everything I can to help that student learn for the duration of the class. I don't see that the $10 obliges me to anything beyond that.

...I rarely dance socially, in the styles I teach, for this very reason, and then the 'problem' doesn't arise.

I feel sorry for you, that is, if you love those dances that you teach.

 

[Gssh]

- just an ordinary local Milonga, not some special high level activity for the elite.

There is was this story i read on one of the blogs - i don't remeber which one - where the writer felt self-congratulatroy about having danced a mercy-dance, and he got scolded by some old milongueros who told him that if he wasn't willing to put all his skill and passion on the table in a dance he shouldn't dance it. Or to make it even more hyperbolic: I doubt that anybody ever told picasso that one of his pencil sketches was just an ordinary sketch, not some special high level activity.

As a dancer i try to put everything i can offer to a follower into my dance - and for me that has lead to dancing less with beginners. I used to be all about dancing with everybody, but now i feel it is to exhausting. When i dance with somebody i mesh with for whatever reason (this has actually not all that much to do with skill and much more with "we hear the music in a way that is interesting to each other" - a certain minimum of technique helps a lot, though) there is an exchange of energy, and i get as much - or even more - back as i give. If it is just me pouring energy and attention into the dance i can not keep it up for more than a few tandas in a row. I don't want to perform for my partner, i want to share the dance. At the moment i try to balance it to be roughly 50/50 - so that i dance as many tandas where i get something as where i give. But in a given milonga that means that there are usually a lot of people who i could dance with that i don't dance with, and that i sit out quite a few tandas.

And i think a teacher not dancing socially is not really a good solution - i assume somebody becomes a teacher because they love to dance, and it would be a bit harsh if they couldn't do it anymore. I guess they could travel incognito to other cities to dance, but that is just a really sad image.

Gssh

P.S. This is actually one of the reasons i like the cabeceo - it helps distinguish between who would dance with me and who would like to dance with me. There are some people that don't get anything out of dancing with me either, and a tanda where we both work hard to make it a great dance and it is almost certain to fizzle is not worth the while for either of us.