Teachers: do you dance at Milongas?

[dchester]

I think one of the core problems with leading the "simple satifying dance" is that it first has to be satifying to the _leader_. Yes, we all talk endlessly how it is all about the follower, but if i as a leader am not actually satisfied with the dance i do i will not be able to convince the follower of it.

And i don't think there is really anything that will help a leader with that besides miles on the dancefloor.

For me, a follower with a good embrace makes a simple dance satisfying.

The catch 22 in this, is that the follower may not be able to trust and relax enough to give you a great embrace, unless the leader is good enough to make her feel like she can surrender. If she's on edge, not sure what the leader is doing, it's difficult to feel the connection.

 

[Subliminal]

My difficulties usually start when I can't walk, and I'm left, in place, to come up with something that doesn't (can't) move. That's another story.

Ah, ok, if that's your problem, maybe this will help...

I agree pretty much with everything the others have said so far. I would like to add one anecdote that helped me move past that barrier.

So I went to one of the local tango festivals about a year and a half ago, and one of the classes was called "Essential Steps". I was kind of curious on what steps might be considered "essential", and it was in the beginner track, so I tried it out. What the class ended up being about was navigation. The teacher proposed 3 basic combinations.

1. Rockstep turn, starting with the left foot forward, then rotating the follower to the left. The goal is to be able to get a full 180 degrees from where you started. In the middle of the rockstep turn, the leader double steps in the middle, so you start facing forward, and end up doing ochos the opposite direction you started.
2. Simple quarter turn to the left, starting with a back ocho, ending with a forward ocho/cross, and walking out.
3. Ocho cortado, and variations involving continuing the turn to the right and ending with the cortado cross back to the left.

So we practiced these steps, and practiced them again, then worked it so we could go back and forth between the three. In particular, 1 and 2 tie well together. Then the teacher revealed that the point of the class was that the steps themselves weren't essential, but the idea of having a couple navigational movements to fall back on is great for a beginning leader. Blocked from the front? Start your rock turn and look to your left with the corner of your eye to see who is coming up behind. Someone racing up on you from the back? Quarter turn back around to the front. Danger to the left? Ocho cortado to protect and move your partner out of the way, then use the moment to take a quick peek behind and to the right.

Once you have a couple rotational movements you can stick together in a pinch, you will feel a LOT more comfortable navigating the floor and moving just in one place. You don't have to pick the three I mentioned, but they are good ones. I'd choose one turn to the left and one turn to the right at the very least. Get so you can them without even thinking. Then build off them. And perform them with different musicality.

There's always the possibility of getting those steps stuck in your head and getting in a rut... but at least then you're moving down the road. Once you get up some momentum, you can hop out and get back on the improvisational pavement.

 

[UKDancer]

I'm very grateful for all of the helpful comments, and I have enough experience to recognise lots of good advice, which I will try and apply to my own dancing. I talked about my 'problems' to another dancer last night, and have been thinking through whether the perception of my own difficulties are actually the real problem, or just the symptoms of a different problem.


A few thoughts:

1. I don't spend anything like enough time dancing tango to stand any real chance of improvement, except at a painfully slow rate. I have to find a way of changing that, or I might as well just accept that tango is not for me.
2. I need to find another teacher. Mine teaches 'moves' exclusively. So not walking, the embrace/connection, musicality, navigation - not even how to link the 'moves'. Tango is not the dance he teaches, surely?
3. A few private lessons with one of the area's better teachers (and there are better teachers, but I'm never free when they hold their classes) might help me to sort out some fundamentals.
4. I must re-read (or, rather, read properly) Paz/Hart's 'Gotta Tango'. The dances I have been watching on YouTube fit their idea of the follower dancing around the leader and the leader dancing around the room. I know their terminology is baffling, but I will give it another go.
5. I need to be brave enough to start attending out-of-town milongas, hopeful of dancing with more experienced followers. Of course, I am fearful of finding them cliquey, and finding myself sitting alone in a corner, all night, and never getting a dance; but there is not an opportunity for me to dance tango in my nearest big city until 16 April, and anywhere else is unknown territory and over an hour's drive away.
6. Perhaps I should try and start a regular practica at the studio - there are quite a lot of tango dancers around here, and at least I'd always be free to attend!

I don't know why I'm writing this, really. Catharsis, I guess! And tomorrow is another day.

 

[newbie]

i am also deeply convinced that a beginning leader can survive a milonga and create acceptable dances with just walking and rocksteps - and nobody ever agrees with me there )

True. I mean, I don't agree. The most impressive demon I've ever seen was by Sebastian & Mariana (after they gave a discovery class) and they just made walks and stops. Not even a cruzada. But you have to be a master to create good dances with such a reduced material.

 

[JohnEm]

I don't know why I'm writing this, really.
Catharsis, I guess! And tomorrow is another day.

And I'm not sure if you're even looking for comment.
So I'll be brief.

1. I don't spend anything like enough time dancing tango to stand any real chance of improvement, except at a painfully slow rate. I have to find a way of changing that, or I might as well just accept that tango is not for me.
2. I need to find another teacher. Mine teaches 'moves' exclusively. So not walking, the embrace/connection, musicality, navigation - not even how to link the 'moves'. Tango is not the dance he teaches, surely?

Spending time is your friend as is the right teacher.
In Tango sometimes the right teacher is yourself.

I recognise the style of your teacher as will others,
but you have rumbled him now.

3. A few private lessons with one of the area's better teachers (and there are better teachers, but I'm never free when they hold their classes) might help me to sort out some fundamentals.

Carefully choose one (and only one for the moment)
even if it entails a journey - maybe to Exeter.
If you've chosen correctly have the confidence in what he teaches.

4. I must re-read (or, rather, read properly) Paz/Hart's 'Gotta Tango'. The dances I have been watching on YouTube fit their idea of the follower dancing around the leader and the leader dancing around the room. I know their terminology is baffling, but I will give it another go.

Gotta Tango set me back until I realised that that
was no more the tango I wanted to dance than that
of my original teacher. It's written by an Argentinian
who seems to have learned in the US.
Your YouTube watching appears to be demos and performance,
Alberto's dance doesn't equip you for close embrace tango
in the moment in crowded conditions.

You said once you like Oscar Casas - a much better example
than anything the Paz's show.

I have no idea how you learn and develop abilities,
mental or physical, but my head needs to understand
the fundamentals and they are in BsAs not the US nor
Europe. The best window available to us from afar
is undoubtedly www.tangoandchaos.org.

6. Perhaps I should try and start a regular practica at the studio - there are quite a lot of tango dancers around here, and at least I'd always be free to attend!

Yes definitely as long as you practise too of course
and not adopt the role of mentor/teacher/coach.

 

[Peaches]

I'd love to have a chance to go on a decently lead workshop that had at its focus sorting out just what, exactly, a leader might do, beat by beat, to produce one of these simple but satisfying dances.

Forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said--I haven't yet taken the time to read the entire thread. (And it would probably tick me off anyhow.)

First off, I loved Sub's thread about needing to go through the step monster phase as a part of learning. There are so many valuable things to get out of the "fancy" steps (and I know I stand a fair chance of being flamed for that statment, but I'll stand by it). And I think those are important things to learn and develop in order for a simple-but-satisfying dance to work.

But aside from that, I think one of the things that makes simple-but-satisfying...well, satisfying...is an incredible embrace, and nuance within your own body. One teacher I had a workshop with at some point (ooooh, bad, tango dancers who were trying to make money...boo! hiss!...and they were *gasp* Argentine...you know they were just cheap hucksters out there to make a buck and sell a bunch of crap! Now that we've gotten that out of the way, those who would be inclined to jump down my throat on this point can just stop before they start.) made the point that the reason why such simplicity could be so satisfying with the older, more experienced milongueros is because they could transmit so much information through their body, and because you could feel the music through them even when they were not moving. Things like holding their bodies differently for soft-n-lyrical bits of music, or tensing and rigidity to go with sharp, staccato music. I don't know about the older milongueros, but I've felt it with younger, experienced leaders and it feels amazing.

Also, for simple-but-satisfying the walk has got to be exquisite. There is no way around that. And rhythmical, and with the music. Not shuffling along, not without variation. It's possible...but oh-so-rare. And if a leader can't do this...I'd prefer they go the step monster route (led well), because at least then i won't be bored.

 

[ant]

Originally Posted by UK Dancer
I don't spend anything like enough time dancing tango

If you can, try getting to the Tango Mango in April, it will help loads.

Carefully choose one (and only one for the moment)
even if it entails a journey - maybe to Exeter.
If you've chosen correctly have the confidence in what he teaches.

Wilmslow is a bit nearer and I love the ways she teaches.

 

[bordertangoman]

Forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said--I haven't yet taken the time to read the entire thread. (And it would probably tick me off anyhow.)

First off, I loved Sub's thread about needing to go through the step monster phase as a part of learning. There are so many valuable things to get out of the "fancy" steps (and I know I stand a fair chance of being flamed for that statment, but I'll stand by it). And I think those are important things to learn and develop in order for a simple-but-satisfying dance to work.

But aside from that, I think one of the things that makes simple-but-satisfying...well, satisfying...is an incredible embrace, and nuance within your own body. One teacher I had a workshop with at some point (ooooh, bad, tango dancers who were trying to make money...boo! hiss!...and they were *gasp* Argentine...you know they were just cheap hucksters out there to make a buck and sell a bunch of crap! Now that we've gotten that out of the way, those who would be inclined to jump down my throat on this point can just stop before they start.) made the point that the reason why such simplicity could be so satisfying with the older, more experienced milongueros is because they could transmit so much information through their body, and because you could feel the music through them even when they were not moving. Things like holding their bodies differently for soft-n-lyrical bits of music, or tensing and rigidity to go with sharp, staccato music. I don't know about the older milongueros, but I've felt it with younger, experienced leaders and it feels amazing.

Also, for simple-but-satisfying the walk has got to be exquisite. There is no way around that. And rhythmical, and with the music. Not shuffling along, not without variation. It's possible...but oh-so-rare. And if a leader can't do this...I'd prefer they go the step monster route (led well), because at least then i won't be bored.

Gosh! Nice Post Peaches..

I need to frame this and use as my goals for dancing.......

 

[Peaches]

Just out of interest, can anyone suggest anything on, say, YouTube, that would be a fair reflection of 'just a simple satisfying dance' rather than some clever, showy stuff.

If you ask a complete novice to 'just dance the music' they will either make a complete idiot of themselves, or stand completely still, while looking very puzzled.

As regards the first point...I'll see what I can turn up for you this evening when I'm at home. Something about work and YouTube just doesn't mix. (*sarcasm; Can you believe they actually want us working during the day? The nerve! *sarcasm off

As regards the second. I would tell you to "just dance to the music", but try it at home, alone...in the dark if you're happier that way. Find a good piece of music that makes you have to GET UP AND MOVE!...and then do it. It doesn't have to be tango music, it can be anything you want. (Hell, one of my all time favorite alternative tango tracks is Natacha Atlas--either "Kidda" or "Eye of the Duck". Or "Aicha" by Khaled. Point is, I can't sit still with those songs on.) Put the music on, crank up the volume, and think about just moving to it. Don't think about "Argentine Tango"--think about letting your feet play with the rhythm, or swaying your body with the melody. Think about how you would walk to it. Once you get comfortable, think about restricting yourself to fwd/bkwd/side/rock steps. Forget about leading anything. Forget about trying to think of tango steps. Just think about moving.

You're a dancer. Other genres, sure, but I have to believe you have felt that overwhelming urge to move your body to music. I have to believe you can feel the difference between sharp and full of tension, or soft and flowing...and how you could move differently to that. I think you're hung up on dancing Argentine Tango, and forgetting that inspiration. Forward, backward, side, and rock steps. Go from there...with inspiration.

 

[JohnEm]

First off, I loved Sub's thread about needing to go through the step monster phase as a part of learning. There are so many valuable things to get out of the "fancy" steps (and I know I stand a fair chance of being flamed for that statment, but I'll stand by it). And I think those are important things to learn and develop in order for a simple-but-satisfying dance to work.

It's the fancy steps that seem to keep the girls going to classes.
Men don't need them - they come out of the basics being right,
not the other way round.

I see you're using the Peaches attack is the best line of defence tactic
so I've removed it!

But aside from that, I think one of the things that makes simple-but-satisfying...well, satisfying...is an incredible embrace, and nuance within your own body. One teacher I had a workshop with at some point made the point that the reason why such simplicity could be so satisfying with the older, more experienced milongueros is because they could transmit so much information through their body, and because you could feel the music through them even when they were not moving. Things like holding their bodies differently for soft-n-lyrical bits of music, or tensing and rigidity to go with sharp, staccato music. I don't know about the older milongueros, but I've felt it with younger, experienced leaders and it feels amazing.

He spoke a lot of sense about the how of tango.
It can only come with time - it's the connection
and that elusive stage of having the music "within you".

Also, for simple-but-satisfying the walk has got to be exquisite. There is no way around that. And rhythmical, and with the music. Not shuffling along, not without variation. It's possible...but oh-so-rare. And if a leader can't do this...I'd prefer they go the step monster route (led well), because at least then i won't be bored.

That's the best explanation I've seen of your attitude. It's understandable
too but maybe not helpful for aspiring quality leaders. Confidence can be
fragile and ephemeral and even the vaguest suggestion that partners
might be bored just shatters it.

 

[bordertangoman]

It's the fancy steps that seem to keep the girls going to classes.
Men don't need them - they come out of the basics being right,
not the other way round.

I see you're using the Peaches attack is the best line of defence tactic
so I've removed it!

He spoke a lot of sense about the how of tango.
It can only come with time - it's the connection
and that elusive stage of having the music "within you".

That's the best explanation I've seen of your attitude. It's understandable
too but maybe not helpful for aspiring quality leaders. Confidence can be
fragile and ephemeral and even the vaguest suggestion that partners
might be bored just shatters it.

oh i wouldnt call that confidence......


my aim is often to have a really boring boring dance so the follower falls into a hypnotic trance..when I see Rapid Eye Movement I know at the end of the tanda she wont have rembered anything but will think that in itself made it such a wonderful experience

 

[Peaches]

I don't spend anything like enough time dancing tango to stand any real chance of improvement, except at a painfully slow rate. I have to find a way of changing that, or I might as well just accept that tango is not for me.

"Enough" time is however much you can put towards it, or however much you want to. Accept your journey for what it is. So long as you are enjoying things, who cares? Who do you have to keep up with? What pace are you trying to set? None of it matters. Just sit back, do what you can when you can, and enjoy the process and frustration of learning.

I need to find another teacher. Mine teaches 'moves' exclusively. So not walking, the embrace/connection, musicality, navigation - not even how to link the 'moves'. Tango is not the dance he teaches, surely?

THIS!!! Find.another.teacher.now. I'd guess this would solve a bunch of your problems.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I don't need to ask them, because I don't care what their answer is. I feel no inclination to live up to their perceptions. I am interested in their feedback regarding me as a teacher, and I do ask them about that. For me it is easy to separate: in class I am a teacher, at milongas I am a dancer.

Your students are unlikely to perform such separations. In fact, I know they won't.

So, if you encounter your local students at your local milonga, do you ignore them, or what?

 

[AndaBien]

Your students are unlikely to perform such separations. In fact, I know they won't.

So, if you encounter your local students at your local milonga, do you ignore them, or what?

I don't ignore them. I socialize with them. If one of them shows devotion and potential I would ask them to dance, but I'd do that even if they weren't my student.

One of the reasons I feel this way is because I've seen too many students take a few lessons, expect to dance with "the teacher", then disappear forever after just a few months. I've decide not to spend any of my personal time with students who are not committed to the long term investment. Once I see that they are, I'm much more likely to dance with them. Again, that has nothing to do with me being their teacher.

 

[Dave Bailey]

hooray for them :applause:

i do the same..no idea what my reputation is though....

"Oh, yes, he's that weird guy up North" sums it up I reckon.