The Booty Misconception
- Thread starter TomTango
- Start date
And I am very late to this, but real life is more important
than writing on here.
Reading on, you seem actually to miss the real point.
Avoiding the rather facetious next paragraph . . this:
This rather one-sided interpretation is not what I meant
by dancing for one's partner. It is not a one-way deal that
that is just for men, each partner should dance for the other
by which I mean each concentrates their senses on the other,
to the exclusion of self as far as possible,
No, you are right that you shouldn't dictate, it has to be
a voluntary decision by both partners. But if you don't know
what it means then I guess neither of you are suitable for it.
That kind of tango is not for everyone but it is its most
popular form socially in Buenos Aires, an improvised dance
of the music in an unchanging embrace
Yes, I agree. And ballerinas (former and current) have very
different ideas and expectations because they have experienced
and developed other sensations of moving their own bodies
to the music and have other expectations too. In my
experience they often do not make good partner dancers.
Absolutely I am not.
There are many ways of dancing, even embracing, descriptions
of which are beyond the scope both your post and mine.
Then there are a wide variety of body types and sizes,
tango as a close embrace dance can rather restrict the relative sizes,
proportions and abilities of the dancing partners. Your potential choice
of partner is rather narrower than in other partner dances.
But that is your choice to make (or not),
and that of your partner of course.
I'm curious, what type of study did you conduct to make this determination, and how long did it take? You must have visited all the milongas in BsAs, to say with such certainty what the most popular form of tango is, socially in BsAs.
BTW, I'd love to see the data, as it might be helpful for my next visit to BsAs, in deciding which milongas to visit.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
An unchanging embrace is well suited for unchanging music...
I'm surprised you think that, it must be that
you have never tried or have never persevered
or just aren't that interested. All of which is OK
except for your criticism of something you either
don't seem to know or may be do not like.
In my experience it can work for all kinds of music,
after all at a milonga you can dance to Tango, Vals
and Milonga; three different time signatures and tempos.
And in BA you would experience other genres: Jazz
and Tropical (Latin rhythms), Foxtrot (nearer to today's
Quickstep tempo) and even Paso Doble. All can be danced
in an unchanging embrace in a genuinely connected
partnership. I suppose that the overriding caveat is that
both partners have to be able to dance to the music
itwillhappen
Forum Master
None of that gets usually danced in an "unchanged embrace". Or you use an unusual definition of "unchanged". At the grass-roots level an embrace is not necessary for a connection at all - but it makes it much more easier.
I suppose that praising the unchanged embrace is tempting for settled people with conceivable minor geriatric issues (like me). Accompanied by the illusion that there might be a pride of dance evolution and it's happening just now and stays forever (other than me).
To gain at least mental flexibility back I strongly recommend to look this video again and again:
You don't seem to know much about the wider dance world.
Ballroom might not dance in an embrace but they do dance
Slow Waltz, Viennese Waltz (near in tempo to Vals), Quickstep
(Argentine Foxtrot tempo), Foxtrot and Paso Doble in relatively
fixed "hold". See any video on YouTube.
I've danced them all for some years before I more or less
abandoned ballroom and latin in favour for the freedom
and the feeling of improvised dancing in an embrace.
I still continue with some latin and swing dance.
What's your experience to be so certain?
What does No connection at grass roots level mean?
No physical connection is a training exercise, preparation
and practice for actual partner dancing, especially useful for men
but sometimes misleading for women as preparation for dancing
in an embrace. But there is a connection, albeit a visual one.
You are pushing your luck here:
From Oxford Living Dictionary - Usage of GERIATRIC:
. . . referring to the health care of old people (a geriatric ward;
geriatric patients.
When used outside such contexts, it typically carries overtones
of being worn out and decrepit and can therefore be offensive
if used with reference to people.
For me it is the very opposite. The best dance in a committed
embrace is by people who are fit and connected with their own
bodies and thus can physically connect with each other.
"Minor geriatric issues" as you rather rudely call them are best
overcome as far as possible. The fitter I am the better I dance,
and the same applies to my partners. Close embrace was once
the dance of the young and naturally fit in Buenos Aires
even though it is not now.
Why would I need to look at it "again and again"?
I largely agree with dance evangelism if it can encourage
non-dancers to dance.
Unfortunately must such messages fail as does this.
I wish I had an answer but I do not. Social dancing has
declined and from what I see it continues to do so.
So I have "mental inflexibility" in need of treatment.
You have a nerve. I have opinions based on experience,
some of which was learning all kinds of different tango,
and watching a video repeatedly isn't going to change them.
You dance how you will, I'm not telling to do anything else,
but I am objecting to you parodying how most dancers in
Buenos Aires dance. Read and watch tangoandchaos.org.
This is social dance not an academic study.
It's quite clear from the many milongas I've attended
that, repeating my post, an improvised dance of the music
in an unchanging embrace is its most popular form in Buenos Aires.
Firstly the in-line or parallel embrace chest to chest, once exclusively
a risque dance style of the centre, has spread everywhere in BsAs.
And then there are many individual interpretations. Four of us once
ventured to Club Bohemia in La Boca (only a walk from the centre
in daylight) and we found an almost universal different embrace
amongst the regular Saturday night diners. But they embraced,
they danced to the music - jointly rhythm first, melody after.
So I would say that if we are seeking absolutes that the only commonality
I have found is that the main BA way of partner dancing is in a body lead
embrace. Here I am excluding academic and choreographed dancing.
But go to Club Chicago in Mataderos on the edge of Capital Federal,
the last post before Buenos Aires province, you will find again many
dancing chest to chest but also other varieties too. I did not see
what some call Tango Salon, nor Nuevo nor Escenario. Take a Sunday
trip to Feria Mataderos and visit Club Chicago; tango in the afternoon,
mixed rhythms in the evening.
For completeness, many people say you can find every style in BsAs,
and that's true but the number of places is small and by the very nature
of those relatively expansive varieties, only small numbers of people
can dance on the floor at time. Those "milongas" are often late night
and the social throng don't go. Often the expansive dancers wait until
even later when numbers have diminished and more space is available.
Do remember these descriptions are not absolutes. For instance go to
Salon Canning on Wednesday and Sunday you will find close embrace.
Go to Parakultural at Canning on a Tuesday or Friday you would find a
mixture. Similar at El Pial where the floor is huge.
And finally - here is a recent Facebook post from the partner
of a twice weekly city centre milonga:
Los que bailamos tango somos considerados loco por aquellos que no
pueden llegar a sentir su musica y comprender las razones de sus letras
which means:
Those who dance tango are considered crazy by those who cannot feel
the music and understand the reasons for the lyrics.
I know its not conclusive at all but it is an insight to how those
who regularly dance feel. And by the way this particular dancer,
who is coincidentally a friend, dances more in a vee embrace
(but unchanging) rather as we found at Club Bohemia in La Boca.
JanTango is our only other regular contributor who has spent more time in the milongas of Buenos Aires, as far as I can tell.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
"Unchanged" means to restrict the dance to something one feels safe and can handle.
At the end everyone is free to feel well at such an event:
or at such an event
No one is better or worse, it's just the personal perception of tango. The old people in the milongas of BsAs today will not dance like the young people in the golden era of tango. And hopefully they all don't they care about the "right" posture, just embrace their partner and walk counterclockwise to the music through the room.
At the end everyone is free to feel well at such an event:
or at such an event
No one is better or worse, it's just the personal perception of tango. The old people in the milongas of BsAs today will not dance like the young people in the golden era of tango. And hopefully they all don't they care about the "right" posture, just embrace their partner and walk counterclockwise to the music through the room.
opendoor
Forum Master
I do appreciate this fair and square appoach, but for me the standard and latin styling isn´t cast in stone, too. Outside the ballroom world (in swing or folk communities) the Viennese Waltz, Quickstep, or PasoDoble are also danced quite differently and highly diverse. At least that is the advantage of social dancing, that the style, codigos, hold etc aren´t fixed but in a state of flux.
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Sometimes I wonder if we are writing in the same language.
"Unchanged" does not mean that at all, it merely
means that the embrace of a couple remains,
it is not broken during the dance. You can see
that in the video which follows your comment.
It was strangely quiet at La Nacional but people
still mainly danced in committed embraces.
It's sometimes rather odd for me to see these clips
when I realise I recognise or even know the dancers.
In the still image before playing is Alfredo who sadly
died very unexpectedly while apparently in the process
of a collaboration to open a tango/bar premises.
He was a genuine dancer and clearly encompassed
other genres. It was an education to see him dance
Chacarera. He danced Vals in this clip.
Meanwhile Mario danced with the lady in red who may be
a foreigner. Mario is a somewhat of a knowledgeable enthusiast
of tango, the music and the dance also both musician and singer.
The second is hardly tango, fun maybe for the audience
who they were entertaining. The music is actually Vals
which is more or less ignored until the end.
We don't know how the old when they were young, no evidence
exists but the milongueros still around at the 1980/1990s revival
possibly still danced much as before. It certainly wasn't the wild
show-off dance of some of the young today.
But the milongueros are almost gone and ones that remain are
very old and they are not supple nor fluid. The younger old people
are those who have learned during the revival but that isn't the
point because the conditions dictated the dance not the teaching
which influences it rather more today.
Which brings us back to the original topic. You are right of course
about the lack of consideration of posture, they adopt all kinds
of posture to achieve the desire of dancing with a partner.
My objection has always been about the commercialised examples
of bad posture and its teaching. It's not good for students.
I agree in principle but in Britain, and in many other countries,
if you know little about partner dance it will be ballroom's standardised
dances you learn. What they are based on, or derived from, is rarely
mentioned. Indeed where are there social dance scenes large enough
and strong enough these days for that kind of natural evolution to occur?
It's not clear that you've even attended half the milongas in BsAs, much less enough to be qualified to make such a statement. You visit there (like many of us do), but you don't live there (like Jan does).
I never claimed it to be empirical nor exhaustive,
it's merely my opinion based on my own experiences.
All the many milongas in the centre which I have attended
either regularly - Lo de Celia, Los Consagrados, Nuevo Chique,
El Arranque, a variety at Obelisco, Gricel and Plaza Bohemia,
and to a lesser extent, El Beso and La Nacional - weren't mentioned
because their one known consistency is the huge domination of
close embrace dancing which can be seen in the many videos.
The touristy Confiteria Ideal (long term closure for restoration)
Friday milonga has also moved to the much smaller El Beso
where the clientele has significantly changed. Indeed all milongas
can change in atmosphere from night to night or on moving venue
as happened to Julia's Sueño Porteño when she had to move from
the now closed Boedo premises.. Oh and I shouldn't forget
La Milonga de Juan on Monday and Wednesday afternoons at
Unione e Benevolenza plus the many more informal and/or open
air milongas, both paid for and free.
Is that enough name dropping? If you need an empirical survey
I suggest you go and do it yourself and you might find how
pointless it is to seek absolutes in an ever changing social environment
affected by unseen and sometimes unknown circumstances.
Right now attendances seem down probably because economic times
in BA are very difficult for many.
As for visiting, yes of course. But I have spent a third of the last five
years in Buenos Aires in periods of living there for two, three and four
months at a time. The locals I dance with often ask if I actually live
in BsAs, other tell me I'm not a tourist, I'm a regular.
Believe that or not, it's up to you.
Many people who live there choose which milongas they attend
and restrict themselves to those they like and those which are
most convenient to attend. Janis herself has openly written to that effect
about herself. Other foreign residents despite living there don't dance
as much with the porteñas as I do. And of course that mirrors some
Argentine men who target the tourists.
But all this is pretty pointless, it's the dance that matters. And many
regular visiting foreign ladies repeatedly go for dancing in an
Argentine embrace because they cannot find it at home despite
the many teachers claiming to teach it in addition to those of course
who do not teach an embrace at all. A comment to me by some porteña
partners is that foreign men don't usually know how to embrace.
You know when you are excluded from that criticism when a porteña
turns up specifically to dance with you in your embrace.
I think that's more than enough on this topic.