The "dark side" of Tango scene

[LadyLeader]

But even if everyone accepts invitations by default, there's a world of difference between dancing with someone who actually wants you vs someone who is just accepting out of politeness... I would still keep improving my dance in this scenario, and I don't think I am alone in this

I have a strong interest to find out how far I can get in AT!
This drive and my insensitivity to other people's opinions have boosted my training and exploring a lot. At school people could be isolated to the nerd group but in tango they are called elitist. When you reach the upper third of skill level in the community you will be hit by this and people can feel uncomfortable when excluded from the main group.

A lot of people don't have the need to test their limits in AT. They like to stay with their peers and develop together with the crowd. IMO the ordinary dancers here are on a significantly higher level today than 20 years ago.

 

[Brummbaer]

I have a strong interest to find out how far I can get in AT!

If there's no set, agreed, standard to measure yourself against, how do you know?

OK, there are some competitions (which I'm not really in favour of), and we can all get that warm feeling from perfecting some element, or feeling we look(?) better than someone else.

BTW, I agree with your sentiments about continuing to 'improve', but interested when it's 'good enough'.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

BTW, I agree with your sentiments about continuing to 'improve', but interested when it's 'good enough'.

Good question. Mostly subjective assessment of your skills and abilities and musicality. You can set yourself specific goals, of course--can I learn X, can I improve Y, can I perfect my walk a bit. And you can work with a professional (although I am not comfortable advocating that approach) who can assess your movement and give you feedback. You could have yourself filmed and try to evaluate if your mental picture of yourself matches the actual images. Also, if you're getting positive feedback from partners about your improvement, you are probably on the right track. Often, we can self-evaluate within a specific context (we set a small goal and achieve it). Other than that, given that we're not pros and not in competitions, I'm not sure where good enough is. Perhaps there is no "good enough." That may be the underlying philosophy to adopt. There is no "good enough" because we know we can always do better.

 

[Rabbit]

When you reach the upper third of skill level in the community you will be hit by this and people can feel uncomfortable when excluded from the main group.

I'm not sure this is the case, the proportion of people who want to dance with me has constantly increased with time - of course the problem is I don't actually want to dance with all of them and I am aware that this can create the perceptions of elitism. But this is an infinitely better problem to have than the reverse situation where you want to dance with lots of people and most of them don't want you.

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm not sure where good enough is. Perhaps there is no "good enough." That may be the underlying philosophy to adopt. There is no "good enough" because we know we can always do better.

Partially agree with that sentiment - we can always do better, except we have the bottom line that we're 'good enough' to partner someone in this dance for a 'good' dance for both sides. I guess it's a self-imposed threshold determined by skill, age, frailty/fitness, finances, comparison, vocabulary, etc., and determination.

Or maybe just to achieve some objective, maybe not yet defined or definable

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Partially agree with that sentiment - we can always do better, except we have the bottom line that we're 'good enough' to partner someone in this dance for a 'good' dance for both sides. I guess it's a self-imposed threshold determined by skill, age, frailty/fitness, finances, comparison, vocabulary, etc., and determination.

Or maybe just to achieve some objective, maybe not yet defined or definable

Possibly. There are different criteria depending on what you want. For example, if you are able to dance with whomever you want and everyone's enjoying it, that may be "good enough." I mean, in a sense, that's the goal. However, if you're very self-aware, you also have a sense of where you are and maybe where you'd like to be. Those goals can be general or specific (specific steps, movements). Some people reach a point where they can more or less dance and are fine with that; they are not interested in pursuing things further. For other dancers, that's just the beginning. And part of it is ego, I suppose, pushing yourself to be better than other dancers because you think you are or can be.

 

[Bailango]

BTW, I agree with your sentiments about continuing to 'improve', but interested when it's 'good enough'.

"Good enough" to enjoy dancing now with good technique and musicality, but strive to keep improving and consistency.

I'm not sure where good enough is.

Saying there is no "good enough" for "now" is like trying for perfectionism. I have met few brilliant (and not so brilliant) founder engineers who are always tweaking a product and never get it to market. It is forever a engineering project and dooms startup companies. The opposites are those who put out half baked products fulls of bugs and problems. Both are bad for success. It is better to release a product that does one thing well than two things badly. Other things can be added. I see "good enough" and "improving the same".

"Good enough" to me is that basic techniques and fundamentals are in right places, people that you want to dance with, like to dance with you, and your dancing feels good to others. The last part requires getting honest feedback from someone you consider good or better dancer. At same time if you get specific compliments from less inexperience dancers about your dancing skill, then you know you are "good enough". May be my definition has a higher bar, but "good enough" is subjective to personal take. Each person has to define what is good enough to them. It is also relative. So have to be careful not to measure it only by your local scene (if you can).

However, if you're very self-aware, you also have a sense of where you are and maybe where you'd like to be. Those goals can be general or specific (specific steps, movements).

Yes. I subscribe to above for the "improving" part. That way dancing never gets stale and there is some excitement about mastering new elements or aspects of the dance.

 

[LadyLeader]

If there's no set, agreed, standard to measure yourself against, how do you know?

OK, there are some competitions (which I'm not really in favour of), and we can all get that warm feeling from perfecting some element, or feeling we look(?) better than someone else.

BTW, I agree with your sentiments about continuing to 'improve', but interested when it's 'good enough'.

Yes, I agree that the social version of AT doesn't have solid standards but I trust on feedback. For me it is more an inner experience of change when I learn and explore new things alone or together with a follower. Here I have trusted on the feedback from the followers - if they enjoy our tanda then I am going to the right direction.

This year I have also started to take private lessons from a male leader and a female follower to ensure that my private training is on track, that my movements, musicality and communication is developing forward, in AT direction.

I don't see the training as a tool to reach a certain skill level which would mark the end of development, an enough point. I instead enjoy the feeling of change and the endpoint would be the moment I lose the fun of exploring.

 

[TTanguero]

The other issue I've heard from much more experienced followers is that leaders who think they are 'good enough' and stop going to classes tend to gradually pick up bad habits which don't get corrected, so become worse and worse dancers over time. So even if we reach a point where we're happy with our level, continuing to go to technique classes is likely to be a good plan.

 

[Brummbaer]

So even if we reach a point where we're happy with our level, continuing to go to technique classes is likely to be a good plan.

"Technique" only, or a "guided" practica are of value, however technique classes tend to be followed by an "intermediate/advanced" class whilst any practica following a class tends to look at the element which has just been taught. I find a separate practica more useful, provided it doesn't just become a milonga.

I find an occasional private lesson is of value. Not to teach some new element, but to look at what would make things work better.

 

[Rabbit]

The other issue I've heard from much more experienced followers is that leaders who think they are 'good enough' and stop going to classes tend to gradually pick up bad habits which don't get corrected, so become worse and worse dancers over time. So even if we reach a point where we're happy with our level, continuing to go to technique classes is likely to be a good plan.

You can swap all instances of the word "leader" with "follower" here too

 

[ArbeeNYC]

So even if we reach a point where we're happy with our level, continuing to go to technique classes is likely to be a good plan.

Not just technique classes, which are helpful but require a lot of follow-up practice. At some point, private classes are much more useful. I think that the more advanced you are, the more helpful they become, because you're able to absorb the feedback and act on it.

 

[itwillhappen]

The other issue I've heard from much more experienced followers is that leaders who think they are 'good enough' and stop going to classes tend to gradually pick up bad habits which don't get corrected, so become worse and worse dancers over time. So even if we reach a point where we're happy with our level, continuing to go to technique classes is likely to be a good plan.

And do you also observe such mechanism in your community?
I would say it's a good plan to listen to direct feedback carefully and take privates from time to time when there is a good occasion.

 

[itwillhappen]

A lot of people don't have the need to test their limits in AT. They like to stay with their peers and develop together with the crowd.

There is also the possiblity do develop with the own strategy and pace.

 

[itwillhappen]

Why do quality and a good social atmosphere have to be exclusive? Don't people want to give their partner the "that was amazing" feeling rather than being just another guy/girl?

I can not produce a "that was amazing" feeling with high frequency at will, not in close embrace.
But I would not opposite against a party atmosphere where I can drink some glasses of wine while dancing easygoing through the night.