The "dark side" of Tango scene

And do you also observe such mechanism in your community?
I don't follow (other than a few hours of following lessons to help inform my lead), and have only been learning for nine months, so am not in a position to form my own view. But it's one I've heard with some frequency from people whose views I trust.
 
But it's one I've heard with some frequency from people whose views I trust.
I suppose it's just subliminal sexistic gossip.
BTW, there is a nice blog article how it it would be if all roles are changed in dancing:

What happens is that one does skip questionable occasions to dance. Yesterday did I just take a look from the distance to an outdoor milonga and quickly vanished because I saw not follower I would like to dance with.
 
You can also view it as encouragement - when you start it seems impossible to catch up with people who have been dancing for 10 or 20 years - then you realise that only a few of them are actually any good because experience in tango or any other field has no value unless you actually learn from it.
 
But even if everyone accepts invitations by default, there's a world of difference between dancing with someone who actually wants you vs someone who is just accepting out of politeness... I would still keep improving my dance in this scenario, and I don't think I am alone in this
I always want to keep improving. I'm just not always successful at it. Sometimes I wonder how long it will be, before I'm too old to be able to improve any more.
 
You can also view it as encouragement - when you start it seems impossible to catch up with people who have been dancing for 10 or 20 years - then you realise that only a few of them are actually any good because experience in tango or any other field has no value unless you actually learn from it.
My rule of thumb is that one can improve five years significantly - so better you are where you like to be then.

At a week long private event with more than 150 dancers, in average for sure more than 10 years of experience, could I by no way identify who danced since 5, 10 or 20 years, and it simply didn't matter.

On topic:
At that event was the "social ambiance" exceptionally good. No one needeed to prove anything, no one was expected to dance really bad, and at the bottom line were we all friends of the organizers and owed them(!) an exiting event.
 
My rule of thumb is that one can improve five years significantly - so better you are where you like to be then.

I did not think about it that way, but that sounds about right. After five years most have an idea what their dance looks like. It might not be exactly "improve" thought- it is more that by that time the direction of ones development is mostly fixed, and there are not going to be any massive changes in approach anymore, just refinement. (though there are some people who completely change direction - but that seems to be usually prompted by some outside event, or by some options/ideas opening up that were not available before).

I don't really see that once they reach that stage the skills of intermediate dancers deteriorate if they don't keep taking classes - there is sometimes a bit of drift when different things/approaches become fashionable, but nothing that some mindfulness can't fix.

In terms of how i think of development of ones skill i think the question of "good enough" is in some sense the wrong question. An idea that i have stolen from my wife who is into yoga is the idea of an activity being a "practice". These are skills that are self sustaining, and doing them longer will lead automatically to refinement and changes of ones practice, but this refinement is to some extent orthogonal to what the activity is about. If one does yoga longer one gets better balance, and flexibility, and the ability to do tougher figures and so on, but there is not really a point of "good enough" - and it is really difficult to imagine what that would even look like: would you stop doing the sun salute every morning once one is good enough? Do it with less mindfulness? Do the pose so that it is no longer actually a stretch?

Tango is for me similar - it only exists on the social dancefloor, in the dialogue (multilogue? :) ) with the ronda, the music, and the partner, and by having this dialogue (with some minimum level of self awareness) we will over time get better at expressing ourselves and (maybe more importantly) listening. We can practice specific skills that can scaffold and facilitate this conversation, but in the end it is only the milonga that teaches tango. Basically i think a lot of the discussions we are having about skills and vocabulary are more about preparing oneself for dancing tango than actually about dancing tango - just like e.g working with weights and doing other stretches and balance exercises and learning different poses will support ones yoga practice, but are not actually doing yoga.
 
Basically i think a lot of the discussions we are having about skills and vocabulary are more about preparing oneself for dancing tango than actually about dancing tango - just like e.g working with weights and doing other stretches and balance exercises and learning different poses will support ones yoga practice, but are not actually doing yoga.
Very interesting. Good point. I would say that it was only after five years that I began to consciously improve and the biggest changes started to occur (ongoing).
 
Very interesting. Good point. I would say that it was only after five years that I began to consciously improve and the biggest changes started to occur (ongoing).

For me i guess it depends what "improvement" and "changes" means. For me the moments of "Yes, this correction completely changed my understanding of the dance, and made everything better" and "This approach makes so much sense!" had basically run out be then, and it was a lot more of "more work on the same thing i have been working on, now coming from a slightly different perspective". So to some extent my own conscious working on my dance became more intense and directed, but it was more exploring/working in the same space that i had already somewhat mapped out than figuring out new things. My actual dance kept changing (and i hope i will continue changing and refining it), but in a - for a lack of a better word - predictable way.
 
If one does yoga longer one gets better balance, and flexibility, and the ability to do tougher figures and so on, but there is not really a point of "good enough" - and it is really difficult to imagine what that would even look like: would you stop doing the sun salute every morning once one is good enough? Do it with less mindfulness? Do the pose so that it is no longer actually a stretch?
But there are physical prerequisites for a sun salute that might have to get trained first. And there might be the need for corrections in the accomplishment. I would define "good enough" here to be able to just do it, with no need to think about it or even a teacher - beeing able not to get distracted from perceiving the real things then.
 
Very interesting. Good point. I would say that it was only after five years that I began to consciously improve and the biggest changes started to occur (ongoing).
Okay, let me express my rule of thumb different:
"I you're not "good" after five years, then it is unlikely that you will get "very good" at all?
Does that sound valid?
 
For me i guess it depends what "improvement" and "changes" means. For me the moments of "Yes, this correction completely changed my understanding of the dance, and made everything better" and "This approach makes so much sense!" had basically run out be then,

Is it typical for people to get that feeling a lot? I've only had it once, quite early on, and I don't expect it to ever happen again - perhaps I was lucky to find a conceptual framework that made sense to me early. I think for me it's been a constant incremental process since day one of refining one or two aspects at a time, experimenting, adding, subtracting, getting feedback... I don't think this process (you might also call it a practice) has an end unless you want it to. I go to milongas and dance intuitively and now and then get glimpses of higher levels of understanding that I can't consistently reproduce yet. Last night I danced a waltz tanda with a regular collaborator and in the first song we felt so connected to the music from beginning to end that we couldn't have interpreted it any better if we'd choreographed everything. And then we couldn't quite get back to that level in the next two songs. And I couldn't say what we did differently. And now I have to find this again.
 
Okay, let me express my rule of thumb different:
"I you're not "good" after five years, then it is unlikely that you will get "very good" at all?
Does that sound valid?
No it doesn't. And my answer isn't any more valid than your question!

In my early days of going to milongas I was once told by a sometime teacher
that after three years you don't get any better. That wasn't right for me
although it may have been for him.

It's the individual who dances with another and it depends on the individual
to know how to improve. In this sedentary age most people can improve
significantly if outside the milonga they concentrate on their own
physicality and capabilities. Consider Tango as a skill and your physical
abilities as the tools. Hone your body and your self-awareness.

You might be surprised at your own improvement. It doesn't need classes,
it requires continual perseverance - for ever. You never stop learning things
that classes will never teach because, to paraphrase a teacher who posts
on here, these are subjects best avoided.
 
Okay, let me express my rule of thumb different:
"I you're not "good" after five years, then it is unlikely that you will get "very good" at all?
Does that sound valid?
No, not really. I think everyone has their own trajectory. You can improve (barring physical injury) as long as you seek to improve and put some work into it. What I suspect is that many folks simply work at it a bit (and not too strenuously) for a year or two and then coast. If you believe in continuous improvement, you can learn/improve just about anywhere along the line. Sometimes without even expecting it!
 
Last night I danced a waltz tanda with a regular collaborator and in the first song we felt so connected to the music from beginning to end that we couldn't have interpreted it any better if we'd choreographed everything.
A teacher in a workshop I was taking (different dance) said that this is essentially music-driven. When both partners hear the music and interpret it the same way, everything becomes easy. Leading and following are simple, because both partners are thinking about the same things.
 

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