The "dark side" of Tango scene

[Vincenze]

Almost all the local practicas I went to were either lead heavy (with most of the leads being a great deal more experienced than I was) or people brought their own dance partner and didn't rotate. Occasionally I'd luck out and get some dancing in but it was hit or miss and not worth the effort.

I found only two ways to overcome this:
1) a familiar older woman from a group class who is not very popular at practicas and milongas, but very friendly, so you can always try new steps with her.
2) private lessons with a female teacher. I was able to negotiate lower rates by buying big packages.

 

[Vincenze]

And many of my students (I teach in a music university) and many other beginners have started Tango and quit because they just don’t feel welcome or they don’t like this ambiance.
And that is what I don’t like, to me it is unnecessary.

I knew attractive girls who were interested in doing only stage steps they watched at performances.

I told them about good group classes teaching social steps, but they were not interested. Eventually, when they visited milongas, people didn't invite them, because leaders hadn't met them in group classes.

Then, I didn't see them again.
Dancers actually don't want to watch performances of beginners or even advanced dancers. They only want to watch professionals.

 

[Gssh]

I don't want beginners on the outside lane of Ronda if they don't yet know how to navigate. They can dance on the inside. Any beginner that will hold up the traffic has no business being in the outermost lane. Isn't that the codiga too.

This is one of the strange things in tango - there are both versions:

1) Beginners should be in the outer lane. The rational is that navigation is easiest there (there is nobody on the right, the lanes are the longest), and even the most basic vocabulary of tango (walk+ stop) will allow them to progress forward and avoid bumping into the couple in front of them.
2)Beginners should be in the middle. The rational is that if you don't move no navigation is necessary, and doing a sort of slow-dance with some stationary tango vocabulary (giros, ganchos?) mixed in will give them a bit of tango experience without getting in the way of other people.

I personally don't like 2 - i think it is adapted ballroom etiquette where sometimes stationary and progressive dances are danced at the same time (foxtrot+swing). I think we are doing beginners a disservice when we teach them tango as a stationary dance, and it leads to these intermediate dancers who dance tango not as a progressive dance, but as short stationary sequences connected by running to the next empty spot on the dancefloor, wherever it might be.

In reality i think depends on the culture of the ronda at a place - there are a lot of places where the outer 2 lanes are complete chaos, and as a beginning leader it is not possible to deal with people zig-zagging, running into my back, trying to push me out of "my" lane into the chairs. The space in the middle is a island of peace there, and most vocabulary is taught as stationary in classes anyway. In other places there is no quiet middle, and it is if anything the messiest place of the ronda - the innermost lanes almost touching, people trying to do too big stationary elements in too small a space with people moving around them in all directions....

In my experience beginners in the middle happens most often on comparatively empty, big dancefloors -there "advanced" dancers often claim the right the shuffle along the edge of the dancefloor and do tiny vocabulary. Beginners on the edge happens most often on smaller, more crowded dancefloors - either there is no quiet middle, or if there is, "advanced" will claim the right to do elaborate big stationary vocabulary there.

 

[Gssh]

A teacher I know, quoting Gavito, told us "You're a beginner for the first 20 years."

This is one of the constant things that all masters say, isn't it? - my martial arts teachers kept telling us that the most difficult thing as one advances in an art is to stay a beginner, and to continue learning. "If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities; in the expert’s mind there are few." (Suzuki). One of my tango teachers said that sometimes she wonders if she should be paying her students for the lessons, because in reality she is the student and they are her teachers, and she keeps learning more and more from them the longer she teachers.

 

[Rabbit]

This is one of the constant things that all masters say, isn't it? - my martial arts teachers kept telling us that the most difficult thing as one advances in an art is to stay a beginner, and to continue learning. "If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities; in the expert’s mind there are few." (Suzuki).

And that's why I think one should avoid getting locked into any one particular school, clique, style, interpretation of the traditions. It is creative death.

But I think it is rarely actually meant that way. When someone says it takes X years to learn tango I believe they usually want to imply one of the following, most commonly:

- Don't be frustrated that you are learning slowly, it's just a difficult dance

But also sometimes the less wholesome:

- I'm better than you and will always be better than you because I've been dancing for Y more years
- It took me this long to learn and I'm in denial that newer dancers are surpassing my level
- It doesn't matter that my teaching methods are not producing effective results because it takes X years to learn anyway
- Why should I bother dancing with anyone apart from my friends that I've been dancing with for X years

Of course I can totally believe it takes 20 years to learn if mediocre teachers are teaching students who dance once or less a week and start with zero physical skills and musicality... I would imagine this is not the case for most people in this forum.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

six or seven years. Those who are hobbyists are better overall dancers - technically and musically. Those that have spent more time being informed have relatively less dancing skills but think of themselves highly. Also venturing to teach. Hobbyists dance more traditional. Informed like to do fancy stuff. I don't know why that correlation exists.

Being informed and dancing a lot are not mutually exclusive. And in my experience, those who know more about the history and traditions of the dance are the most traditional dancers, which is to be expected.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

This is one of the constant things that all masters say, isn't it? - my martial arts teachers kept telling us that the most difficult thing as one advances in an art is to stay a beginner, and to continue learning. "If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities; in the expert’s mind there are few." (Suzuki).

I don't know. Possibly. But I feel it's good to keep in mind as we move forward. If we accept it as true, it allows us to keep learning throughout our journey. As your quote exemplifies. If someone asks me how long i have been dancing, I can always honestly say, "I'm a beginner."

 

[Bailango]

I don't know. Possibly. But I feel it's good to keep in mind as we move forward. If we accept it as true, it allows us to keep learning throughout our journey. As your quote exemplifies. If someone asks me how long i have been dancing, I can always honestly say, "I'm a beginner."

I have replied to that question with "beginner with a little experience" or "beginner with some experience". The look on face can be priceless. Some people can be persistent or directly start at "how many years you been dancing", instead of more common "how long you been dancing". Latter is easier to answer with a non-quantifiable answers like "for quite a while" or "for more than 5 years".

One time it backfired was when I was in my 7th or 8th year. I cabeceo a lady, who was may be in late 50s. She calls me closer and asks how long you been dancing. I tell her "for some time". She tells me sweetest possible way "oh I have been getting stepped on. Please excuse me, I am not dancing with beginners" while rubbing her feet. She meant for rest of the milonga. Though she left very soon after that conversation.

 

[Gssh]

Some people can be persistent or directly start at "how many years you been dancing", instead of more common "how long you been dancing". Latter is easier to answer with a non-quantifiable answers like "for quite a while" or "for more than 5 years".

I tend to try to avoid that conversation, too - mainly because i think that the years don't mean all that much without the context what ones practice is actually like, and because match/mismatch of approaches seems to be more predictive of a good experience than time anyway. (that said, i have to admit that i find it quite amusing when one of the younger beginners at the university club keeps pushing for an explicit answer - i usually give in because being obviously evasive creates a weird dynamic - and then they realize that i have been doing this for longer than they have been alive. BHUAHAUAHA

 

[Bailango]

And that's why I think one should avoid getting locked into any one particular school, clique, style, interpretation of the traditions. It is creative death.

But I think it is rarely actually meant that way. When someone says it takes X years to learn tango I believe they usually want to imply one of the following, most commonly:

- Don't be frustrated that you are learning slowly, it's just a difficult dance

But also sometimes the less wholesome:

- I'm better than you and will always be better than you because I've been dancing for Y more years
- It took me this long to learn and I'm in denial that newer dancers are surpassing my level
- It doesn't matter that my teaching methods are not producing effective results because it takes X years to learn anyway
- Why should I bother dancing with anyone apart from my friends that I've been dancing with for X years

Of course I can totally believe it takes 20 years to learn if mediocre teachers are teaching students who dance once or less a week and start with zero physical skills and musicality... I would imagine this is not the case for most people in this forum.

I tend to view the first ten years as equivalent to adolescent years of dancing. Somewhere around ten year mark we start realizing how less we know. It is also around that time dancers feel need to do retooling and go back to fundamentals in a serious way. For first decade we dance to better, to look better, to be seen as better, focus on perfectionism, be better than the next guy. It is about external validation. Then we start dancing for ourselves. There is a less need to prove anything to anyone. The focus turns towards creating our own dance and style. May be that is equivalent to start of adulthood in Tango years.

 

[Bailango]

I tend to try to avoid that conversation, too - mainly because i think that the years don't mean all that much without the context what ones practice is actually like, and because match/mismatch of approaches seems to be more predictive of a good experience than time anyway.

Totally agree. Self being exhibit A to that. Anyone dancing half or one third the time I have, may be equally experienced as me. If they been practicing two or three times a week and going to milonga every week.

 

[AlexTangoFuego]

The dark side seen you have not.

 

[JournalInTime]

This is one of the strange things in tango - there are both versions:

1) Beginners should be in the outer lane.
2) Beginners should be in the middle.

I personally don't like 2 [...] In reality i think depends on the culture of the ronda at a place

Around here, you'll see #1. That's the local culture. The first time I ever heard "beginners should be in the middle" was on these forums! On our floors, the outer lane is the friendliest to beginners, because it's easy to enter, easy to leave, and doesn't have distracting traffic on one side. The inner lanes are pure hell; just getting there is a task for advanced leader technique, and once you're there, it's a festival of dangerous static figures. All of my teachers – and I've had a lot of them – have said in very clear terms that beginners ought to stay in the outside lane.

I'm speaking of "at the milonga," of course. At a práctica, those working on steps other than the walk should move to the middle where they won't hold up the line of dance. Usually, those working on the walk are more advanced, so the result is that beginners end up in the middle. But my teachers also made it very clear that's how the práctica works, which has nothing to do with how the milonga works.

 

[TTanguero]

It doesn't mean someone shouldn't go dance at milongas. Be selective.

I think this is key. Technically, I danced in my first milonga after five lessons, but that was with a highly experienced follower taking me into the empty-ish centre of the floor and being responsible for keeping me out of everyone's way!

The first time I actually danced in a milonga for real was just over two months in, after <counts> 26 lessons. I didn't hit anyone, didn't tread on any of my follower's feet, and nobody ran away, so I counted it a success.

I think there are things you can only learn in a milonga, so I'd personally advocate going earlier rather than later, but you do need to choose the right ones. Friendly ones, with dancers of all levels, not snobby ones with a very high level. At the nine-month-beginner point, I'm very selective which ones I go to.

 

[Brummbaer]

I guess the quotes are there to express doubt? If classes once a week for a year and then three to five classes a week for nine months "doesn't really mean much in tango." I suggest that some of people dancing tango might want to reconsider what "means much".

It isn't the number of classes; it's what you absorb and can effortlessly recreate from them with someone who hasn't been on the class.

I don't think that's unique to AT, but learning in general. Doesn't matter how much theory you learn, until you've had the experience of putting it into practice it doesn't count. That doesn't mean you shouldn't attend milongas; just get them into perspective.

Our regular weekly classes aren't at a particularly high level, and I now find them less challenging. Monthly we take a class elsewhere and, although readily doable, they are more thought provoking, shall we say. Takes about a month for what we've learned to become effortless. Those classes run weekly. I couldn't internalize the information without significant daily practice between lessons - and I don't have the time or commitment (I have other things in life apart from AT)

Others have mentioned practicas, milongas, and the hybrid "practicalonga". It all depends where you are and what you make of it. Our weekly class has a "practica" following on. Most people use that as an informal "milonga", or "practicalonga", possibly due to its length, but yes, I can stop and ask for advice on some move. We also attend another practica which is just practice time. The milonga is just a more formal occasion (just dance, no teaching).