The lead for the cruzada

[dchester]

Hi Imbrace, I follow none of the said explanations. The cross, either in X, ||, or cortado system simply is dragging the follower into another track. Are you familiar with thinking in tracks? This is Naveira stuff.

cheers

We were talking about how to lead the cross. I'm not clear how talking about tracks explains the lead. Hopefully, the dragging stuff isn't referring to the lead either.

FWIW, going from 4 tracks (outside parallel) or 3 tracks (cross system) to 2 tracks (parallel) is consistent with (I think) everything that's been posted about leading the cross, so I'm not sure what your point is. Can you elaborate on how you lead it (assuming that there is a difference)?

 

[borisvian13]

What creates a cross? and can we detect a single patter in the lead to it?

The step of the follower BEFORE the cross is what makes the cross possible. If that step is a crossed step (by that I mean any step with disassociation, think of it as a half ocho, although the ocho can be flat, that is without pivoting), then you can lead the follower to cross.

Once you have lead your follower to make a crossed step, you always have two options: either to lead (with a diagonal impulse) the follower to cross her feet, or to untwist her (rotating your torso) and continue with anything else but a cross. So the cross is definitely led and not automatic.

Yes, it is that simple, all crosses in all situations in tango arise that way and are all structurally equivalent. The rest is mumbo-jumbo and sound and fury from people who don't quite understand the basic structure of the dance AND/OR want to make things look complicated to their students for one of the obvious reasons ....

 

[Gssh]

Can you elaborate on how you lead it (assuming that there is a difference)?

From my perspective there is no real difference except for which foot the follower is on - assume a 3-track with Track 1 leader left foot, track 2 leader right foot, track 2 follower right foot and track 3 follower left foot.


A cross changes tracks in this order: First follower left foot from track 3 to track 2, then followers right foot from track 2 to track 1.

A normal change of tracks changes tracks in the reverse order: First followers right foot from track 2 to track 1, then followers left foot from track 3 to track 1.

This is of course very, very schematical, and not really useful for anything but an analysis of what the options are and to start playing with this with a partner, but this abstraction suggests that any movement that can lead to a sidestep can lead to a cross.

Gssh

 

[salthepal]

This.

The step of the follower BEFORE the cross is what makes the cross possible. If that step is a crossed step (by that I mean any step with disassociation, think of it as a half ocho, although the ocho can be flat, that is without pivoting), then you can lead the follower to cross.

Once you have lead your follower to make a crossed step, you always have two options: either to lead (with a diagonal impulse) the follower to cross her feet, or to untwist her (rotating your torso) and continue with anything else but a cross. So the cross is definitely led and not automatic.

Yes, it is that simple, all crosses in all situations in tango arise that way and are all structurally equivalent. The rest is mumbo-jumbo and sound and fury from people who don't quite understand the basic structure of the dance AND/OR want to make things look complicated to their students for one of the obvious reasons ....

 

[UKDancer]

The step of the follower BEFORE the cross is what makes the cross possible.

Agreed.

The step of the follower BEFORE the cross is what makes the cross possible. If that step is a crossed step (by that I mean any step with disassociation, think of it as a half ocho, although the ocho can be flat, that is without pivoting), then you can lead the follower to cross.

Once you have lead your follower to make a crossed step, you always have two options: either to lead (with a diagonal impulse) the follower to cross her feet, or to untwist her (rotating your torso) and continue with anything else but a cross. So the cross is definitely led and not automatic.

Yes, it is that simple, all crosses in all situations in tango arise that way and are all structurally equivalent. The rest is mumbo-jumbo and sound and fury from people who don't quite understand the basic structure of the dance AND/OR want to make things look complicated to their students for one of the obvious reasons ....

A diagonal impulse sounds dangerously like mumbo-jumbo . It needn't be diagonal (the follower is moving around the leader, and I think of it as a circular, not linear action), and there needn't be any impulse: some of the nicest crosses take their time.

Almost anything looks complicated to a student when it is first presented, but I have yet to discover any underlying principle of movement in dance that isn't, ultimately, simple. The original question, though, was about how you lead it, not about the concept. I tend to find that sound and fury are of limited usefulness in class, and I would far rather deal with the cross in five minutes, and spend the rest of the time exploring an improvisatory approach to getting into it and out again.

 

[newbie]

the very basic cross of 3-4-5 in the parallel system
and the 3-5 cross in the parallel system.

In parallel system you can also lead 2-5.

The 3-5 is the oldest one. The contra-body position of the "3" disappears around the "5" and the follower crosses. There is a lead of sorts but not intentional. In the parallel-normal system you need to emulate the natural contra-body position with a very anti-natural ape-walk position on the 4.

 

[Imbrace]

Hello guys,

Wow that's a lot of useful information. I read your posts over and over again and practised some. Thank you very much all of you. I feel like I'm looking now to the cross from a different perspective. Thanks for the first replier and the most contributing, UKDancer. I did not know this was going to stir up the hornet's nest

I'd like to highlight some sentences that sounded nice to me and was artully expressive.

- One way to approach it (the lead) is that you want her to make a side (or diagonal) step, when she is on the wrong foot.

- a lead that results in the followers centre of gravity being to the right hand side of her right foot. ( or vice versa)

- It is a sidestep towards the side she cannot step on

Awesome!

watch?v=N0r2T1vkhME

I learnt how to lead a cross from a side step before I read further . UKDancer and Gssh confirmed my understanding in their succeeding posts.

AND/OR want to make things look complicated to their students for one of the obvious reasons ....

Are you stirring up another nest

A cross changes tracks in this order: First follower left foot from track 3 to track 2, then followers right foot from track 2 to track 1.

Did not get this. How can both LF and RF be in the same track (2)? Do you consider that crossed feet are in a single track? Can you explain how you see these tracks?

Happy dancing,

Imbrace

 

[Imbrace]

In parallel system you can also lead 2-5.

I missed your post. I agree with that. This is what I learnt from gyb's video. I think both 1-5 and 2-5 are possible.

The 3-5 is the oldest one. The contra-body position of the "3" disappears around the "5" and the follower crosses. There is a lead of sorts but not intentional. In the parallel-normal system you need to emulate the natural contra-body position with a very anti-natural ape-walk position on the 4.

I do not understand. Can you elucidate?

Thank you for bringing up the 3-5 cross. No one talked about it and I forgot about it too.

 

[opendoor]

The cross, either in X, ||, or cortado system simply is dragging the follower into another track. Are you familiar with thinking in tracks?

Err...

But I don't intend to start dragging my partners around anytime soon, but perhaps that's not quite what you meant?

Sorry wrong verb: the leader changes the track the follower follows.

 

[dchester]

In parallel system you can also lead 2-5.

The 3-5 is the oldest one. The contra-body position of the "3" disappears around the "5" and the follower crosses. There is a lead of sorts but not intentional. In the parallel-normal system you need to emulate the natural contra-body position with a very anti-natural ape-walk position on the 4.

I'm assuming these numbers refer to the steps in the 8CB, so if they are not then it explains my confusion. I'm not clear what you mean by the follower going from step 3 to 5 (step 5 being at the cross).

Having her go from step 2 to 5, I understand, along with 4 to 5, and even 6 to 5 (as the follower starts on her right foot and ends on her left foot).

Going from step 3 to 5 (without step 4) would seem to say she started on her left foot (at step 3), and some how crossed and still ended up on her left foot (at step 5). This is well beyond my current ability to lead.

 

[Subliminal]

Btw Imbrace, lots of very leader-centric posts in this thread. Sometimes it helps to imagine yourself as the follower, or get someone to lead you through the step to see how it feels.

Ultimately, as with most at moves, the Cross can be distilled down to two parts: creating the space for the follower, and leading her to take that space. Boris is right about one thing at least, leading the Cross is as much about the step before as the actual Cross step.

 

[Peaches]

Btw Imbrace, lots of very leader-centric posts in this thread. Sometimes it helps to imagine yourself as the follower, or get someone to lead you through the step to see how it feels.

Good point. As a follower who does not lead at all, I have no idea what goes into creating the lead for the cross, from whatever kind of "lead-in." What I can tell you is that so long as I'm following the leader's chest/center, and keeping my alignment to that constant*, there is absolutely no other thing I can do except to cross. To me, it's less about where the leader is putting my feet than where I have to put my feet to keep myself aligned to him. There are times (more often than not), when this feels like a rotation--I "twist" my torso to the right to keep my alignment to him as he goes outside partner, and then when he brings me back in front of him the ONLY way I can do it (*ahem* comfortably--I can manage to screw things up nine ways 'til Sunday, but none of them will feel good) is to bring my left foot across my right. Or, if he's not rotating as much, but continuing in a line, then my right side still feels "further back" and I still feel "twisted" to the right--and the only way to take the next step in the line is to bring my left foot over my right again. Done right, I have no other options.

*There are times and ways when that alignment changes, but I'm not even going to get into that here and now.

 

[salthepal]

Hornet's nest? This is probably one of the nicest & most productive threads we've had on a very controversial topic in a long time!

 

[Steve Pastor]

If you and a partner are not averse to dancing apilado, you might try to lead a cross from a stationary position. I think you will find that you will have to use only your body: your axis, and your torso. And that knowledge, which you will get in both your head and your body, if you do it long enough, will be very useful.

 

[Imbrace]

Btw Imbrace, lots of very leader-centric posts in this thread. Sometimes it helps to imagine yourself as the follower, or get someone to lead you through the step to see how it feels.

Sometimes I do when I have a good leader around who is willing to lead a man. However I have more experiences dancing with beginers and noticing how they react to the variation and each of the variations in my lead.

I'm assuming these numbers refer to the steps in the 8CB, so if they are not then it explains my confusion. I'm not clear what you mean by the follower going from step 3 to 5 (step 5 being at the cross).

Yes they are, but you rock on you right leg instead of completely step on it, and while your girl is bringing her left leg back (to meet her standing right leg), you pivit her to make her hips face your left, just like you do if you want to make her do a forward ocho, and then pivit her back to make her hips face you again.

I see this creates the same torso rotation that happend in 345 and ocho cortado. Do you agree?

(*ahem* comfortably--I can manage to screw things up nine ways 'til Sunday, but none of them will feel good)

*ahem* I got you

Or, if he's not rotating as much, but continuing in a line, then my right side still feels "further back" and I still feel "twisted" to the right--and the only way to take the next step in the line is to bring my left foot over my right again.

Can you explain this more?

Hornet's nest? This is probably one of the nicest & most productive threads we've had on a very controversial topic in a long time!

u r right