The lead for the cruzada

[dchester]

Good that you asked. It's been like a story told from one person to another, by the time it gets to the person # 10, it can be completely different

In my first post I mentioned 4 forms/approaches of/to the cross:

1. 345 in the parallel system basic
2. 345 in the cross system basic
3. the cross from the ocho cortado
4. 35 cross from the parallel system (Peaches says she would cross, although it has nothing in common with a "standard" cruzada, and is an entirely different feel.)

When I lead the 35 cross, most of girls get it except beginners.

I'm unable to determine if you are answering "yes", "no", or "I don't know" to my question. I was asking if you were referring to the ocho cortado? (like what Peaches said, this 35 cross terminology has no meaning to me).

 

[Imbrace]

I confess I have really no clue what you're talking about. From the written description, I have no idea how #3 and #4 are different; "35 cross from the parallel system" means nothing to me, but your earlier description made it sound exactly like an ocho cortado (and, apparently, I'm not the only one to have this thought). Could you please explain what is different about them?

As a follower, I (should) feel absolutely no difference between the cross and parallel systems. Hell, if you do it right you could be tap dancing a jig (question: do jigs get tap danced? regular danced? Hmmm...) and I wouldn't care. What you do with your feet is of no consequence to me as a follower...with limited exceptions.

By my earlier description, do you mean the one in post # 39 that you quoted in post # 40? If yes, then maybe the ocho cortado meaning is inclusive of that particular thing. I don't know in the beginning of my journey, and whether it is or not, I suggest we put the standard form* of ocho cortado aside as well as it's name, and let's do this.

Your leader makes step 3 from the parallel system basic with his right outside you on your right hand side (you do left leg backwards), but puts 50% of the weight on his right before he comes back to his original position** (weight on left leg for him and right leg for you)***. And while coming back, and well before you collect, he pivots you making your hips face towards his left hand side. Now, this is the position from which you can go for a forward ocho, but he isn't going to make you do any ocho at all. Instead he is just going to pivot you back immediately to face him.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

=========================
* By standard ocho cortado, I mean a) cadencia b) forward step by her on his right hand side c) side step by her with a pivot to her right d) pivot by her to her left while undoing the side step and crossing LF over RF.

In this a single forward and then a side steps are actually executed, unlike the above scenario where no step is actually executed.

** This is what I called rocking on his right/your left vs. stepping on it as you would do in # 3 step. I'd say that's like a cadencia, but with the other leg.

*** If he does just that, nothing further should happen, because you did something and undid it completely and cleanly.

 

[Peaches]

By my earlier description, do you mean the one in post # 39 that you quoted in post # 40? If yes, then maybe the ocho cortado meaning is inclusive of that particular thing. I don't know in the beginning of my journey, and whether it is or not, I suggest we put the standard form* of ocho cortado aside as well as it's name, and let's do this.

Your leader makes step 3 from the parallel system basic with his right outside you on your right hand side (you do left leg backwards), but puts 50% of the weight on his right before he comes back to his original position** (weight on left leg for him and right leg for you)***. And while coming back, and well before you collect, he pivots you making your hips face towards his left hand side. Now, this is the position from which you can go for a forward ocho, but he isn't going to make you do any ocho at all. Instead he is just going to pivot you back immediately to face him.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

=========================
* By standard ocho cortado, I mean a) cadencia b) forward step by her on his right hand side c) side step by her with a pivot to her right d) pivot by her to her left while undoing the side step and crossing LF over RF.

In this a single forward and then a side steps are actually executed, unlike the above scenario where no step is actually executed.

** This is what I called rocking on his right/your left vs. stepping on it as you would do in # 3 step. I'd say that's like a cadencia, but with the other leg.

*** If he does just that, nothing further should happen, because you did something and undid it completely and cleanly.

Hm. Well, it both clarifies and muddies for me. I now see how what you're describing is different from an ocho cortado. However...I don't understand at all--again, based on the description, written word being a poor way to describe physical motion--how what you're describing would lead anyone to cross. If I'm "rocked back" on my left leg, and then pivoted to my right before collecting fully, then my left leg is still behind me. How do you get from there to expecting the follower to cross her left leg in front of her right?

 

[Imbrace]

If I'm "rocked back" on my left leg, and then pivoted to my right before collecting fully, then my left leg is still behind me. How do you get from there to expecting the follower to cross her left leg in front of her right?

well, I think I got you. Your left leg does not stay behind. It is just that you get pivoted while it is coming back. This is what I said, and that's why I also said "... before he comes back to his original position** (weight on left leg for him and right leg for you)***"

How clearer do you find it now?

 

[LadyLeader]

I think the pivot should be started quite late, it maybe could be ok even as late as when she is collecting, to get the left foot pass as you wanted.

Early started pivot is also the lead for follower enrosque and you get a cross, where the follower has her left foot crossed behind the right one.

 

[Imbrace]

I think the pivot should be started quite late, it maybe could be ok even as late as when she is collecting, to get the left foot pass as you wanted.

Early started pivot is also the lead for follower enrosque and you get a cross, where the follower has her left foot crossed behind the right one.

So what you're saying is that an early pivot creates the cross from an enrosque, whereas if you wait till she collects, she'll cross with the same lead (rotation to the right then to the left) that you make in 3-4-5. Is that correct?

 

[Peaches]

well, I think I got you. Your left leg does not stay behind. It is just that you get pivoted while it is coming back. This is what I said, and that's why I also said "... before he comes back to his original position** (weight on left leg for him and right leg for you)***"

How clearer do you find it now?

Marginally, although I still don't see anything in the description of the movement/lead that would cause me to cross my left foot over my right. I rock back, a pivot in one direction, a pivot in the other direction...there is absolutely nothing there that would induce me to put one foot in front of the other, or to change weight. Nothing. I would...rock back, collect (possibly--still unclear on that bit), and then basically pivot in place. If you want a cross you've got to lead that free foot to do something...and then you've got to change my weight. I don't see that at all in your description.

 

[AndaBien]

So what you're saying is that an early pivot creates the cross from an enrosque, whereas if you wait till she collects, she'll cross with the same lead (rotation to the right then to the left) that you make in 3-4-5. Is that correct?

Imbrace, It's already been mentioned that putting tango steps, especially the cruzada, into words is a challenge. Multiply that by your efforts to interpret the descriptions accurately, and it's hard to know if there is any real understanding happening.

My question is, don't you have a tango teacher available to you, or another student, who you could actually stand on the floor with to discuss this topic?

 

[Imbrace]

If you want a cross you've got to lead that free foot to do something...

I think you must have missed this at the very beginning of the thread, in my first post.

And regarding the 3rd form mentioned above which is 3-5, some say a leader needs to take his follower to the very start of a forward ocho where she start to move her left leg forward to his left hand side just passing by her right leg and then interrupt the ocho by pivotting her to face him in which she will already find her heft leg on the right of her right both pointing at him.

Does this interrupted forward ocho induce you to put one foot in front of the other?

Imbrace, It's already been mentioned that putting tango steps, especially the cruzada, into words is a challenge. Multiply that by your efforts to interpret the descriptions accurately, and it's hard to know if there is any real understanding happening.

My question is, don't you have a tango teacher available to you, or another student, who you could actually stand on the floor with to discuss this topic?

I agree this is your opinion, and so far I understood and benefited a lot from many posts here, and if you've read through this thread, you'd have already found how some members showed appreciation for the information presented, and seen how some posters showed deep understanding and rich description ability. So are you saying that this forum should only be used for easy and unchallenging discussions, or perhaps you're just trying to suggest something you find more useful to me?

Regarding your question, no, I have no teacher.

 

[Gssh]

Marginally, although I still don't see anything in the description of the movement/lead that would cause me to cross my left foot over my right. I rock back, a pivot in one direction, a pivot in the other direction...there is absolutely nothing there that would induce me to put one foot in front of the other, or to change weight. Nothing. I would...rock back, collect (possibly--still unclear on that bit), and then basically pivot in place. If you want a cross you've got to lead that free foot to do something...and then you've got to change my weight. I don't see that at all in your description.

I think this is not a cross in the usual sense, but an enrosque - i.e i guess what he is leading is that the leader grounds the follower in the middle if the front step of the forward ocho, so that there is no free leg anymore, and keeps her grounded while pivoting her back, creating a twist that travels down the body and ends up twisting the feet to allow the shoulders and hips to align with the leader. Pretty much like the standard leader enrosque for the giro. I usually prefer to do this from a front step - ground on the middle axis, and walk around her she is overtwisted and it resolves into an boleo dunting the untwisting. I find this one difficult to integrate into my dance, as the only way to make this reasonably comfortable is to do it slowly and gently, and then it takes a lot of time, and as the point of the twist where the follower releases is determined solely by her flexibility it is hard for either of us to fit this nicely into the music. (YMMV, of course)

I actually don't think of this as a cross, because the mechanics are so different - you just end up in a position where the feet are crossed.

Gssh

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cross from Front Ocho to Leader's Left

ok, I think I missed this one because the thread go diverted to discussion of other crosses. So here are my thoughts... I almost never lead this cross in a vacuum. But it is quite common to experience it from the left turn that goes back-side-front then walk out. If you are leading close embrace crossing ochos, the follower will automatically do the cross you describe. If you lead pivoting ochos, she may or may not cross.

Now, as far as making sure that she crosses... I think with the method you described in the OP, there is no guarentee. Simply pivoting her to face you won't do much. I can come up with about three different scenarios:

1. Lead follower to step in front of you with her left foot. Perform an Alteration, changing the direction of her step before she lands, planting her foot in the cross, and turning her to face you. Note, followers who have not danced nuevo or modern styles may find this uncomfortable.
2. Lead follower to step in front of you with her left foot. Allow her to plant the foot, then stop her with split weight. Pivot her (follower's enrosque) into cross.
3. Lead follower to step in front of you with her left foot. Allow her to step, but give her a quick pivot, cutting her off as she collects. You may get a cross, but this is almost more like an adornment. She may bring her feet together instead. (And if she is good, you will not feel the difference between the two.)

That's all I can think of now, assuming I understand you correctly. This seems like an odd move to me, and I wouldn't think of it as an everyday thing. Like I said, I will let a follower decide if she wants to do that cross in a back-side-front left turn, and that's about it.

 

[Gssh]

So are you saying that this forum should only be used for easy and unchallenging discussions, or perhaps you're just trying to suggest something you find more useful to me?

I think what AndaBien is wondering is if this discussion is helpful for you and your dance - talking about tango in this way, and the perspectives everybody is providing is in some ways completely seperate from being able to dance anything. The true tango exists only at the milonga, what we do here and in practice is practice and exploration of "stuff" that will in the end contribute to our tango.

In the indonesian martial arts there is the concept that it is impossible to teach martial arts, and that what happens in combat is completely personal and individual and spontaneous, the flower (kembang). All that training and teaching and practice provides is the seeds that grow into this flower.

So when i start to think of crosses as sidesteps to the "wrong" side, or as overleading a collection so that the follower is forced to collect on the other side of her original balancing point then these are very incomplete models, and while these models are completely incompatible with other models of what a cross is, they are all descriptions of the same underlying gestalt. They are also all completely wrong and useful only in the sense that each of these models helps troubleshooting a specific aspect of the movement, and allows to play with that aspect of the movement and to expand our vocabulary into a set of related movements that share this concept when we spend a few hours in a practica or renting a dancefloor and playing with this.

So i think the best discussions on this board are either troubleshooting a specific problem (i want X and my follower does Y, and i tried changing a,b, and c, and i have no idea what else i could look at), and having a pool of lots of contributer with unique and contradictory perspectives helps, or they are sweeping more abstract discussions that (again due to the contradictory perspectives) help to spark ideas to be explored in our personal practice.

This thread is sitting uneasily in the middle - it veers from the extremely general (like e.g. i don't think my descriptions of a cross is useful to anybody who doesn't already know how to lead one - (i still think they are useful ideas to play with)) to concrete descriptions of how and where to step, and these descriptions are equally incomplete, because they only describe one part of the puzzle and can only become more concretized when tried with a partner and her movement, not the theory determines what needs to be debugged. So subleties like timing and so on are best explored hands on, either by a teacher who is there, or (the harder way)with a patient and honest partner.

No written description can offer this level of detail, especially as these details are different depending on how tall the follower and leader are in relationship to each other, how heavy,strong,fast they are in relationship to each other, what their personal movement preferences are and so on.

What you seem to be asking for is a complete, "danceable", description of a movement, and that is really, really difficult (and imo probably impossible). Discussions here can help debug things, and they can offer food for thought to be explored, but they can't actually teach.

I personally think it is completely possible to refine and work on ones tango without a teacher, but only when dancing a lot and practicing with a partner to develop the parts of ones dance that are not milonga-ready yet. That is what i do the most of the time as i feel that the group classess offered here are not adressing what i am looking for at the moment, and privates are too expensive to do as much as i want to.

But (and i might be wrong about AndaBiens reasons) similar to AndaBien i am wondering if you are getting what you need from this thread, because your questions sound like you are trying to completely nail down the theory instead of playing with these ideas with a partner to see what happens. The theories and explanations are all wrong, the people you dance with are the only truth. If you wonder about subtle timing differences the board is the wrong place to start exploring this - exlore it with your partner, note what happens, and then start a thread about your experiences, and what other people have experienced with similar movments (or completely different movements - boards are not good at staying on topic )

Gssh

P.S. I am not trying to discourage you from this board - it is wonderful place to share and discuss, and we surely need more active discussions, but i am trying to share how and for what i use the board, and what i think it can do, and can't do. Other people with different learning styles or who are better at visualizing things might have different experiences.

 

[Gssh]

Re: Cross from Front Ocho to Leader's Left
1. Lead follower to step in front of you with her left foot. Perform an Alteration, changing the direction of her step before she lands, planting her foot in the cross, and turning her to face you. Note, followers who have not danced nuevo or modern styles may find this uncomfortable.

This is interesting - just to clarify - you are asking her to shape the cross by:

1) Follwer steps in front with her left foot
2) left foot lands
3) right foot takes off
4) change her direction while she is hanging (i probably would also step a tiny bit in double time towards my 4 o'clock while pivoting her)
5) becasue of the change in direction her right foot ends up to the left of her left foot in a cross

another thing to put on my list of things to try - i have a soft spot for creating crosses by tuckig the right foot behind - my standard for this is

1) followe steps in front with her left foot
2) left foor lands
3) right foot takes off, but is pursued and caught up with by the leaders right foot and kept from collecting by being guided to the left of her left foot, locking her in a cross
4) from here what i usually do is continue the giro, so she steps in front with her left foot again - so its more of a lead adornment than anything else - as she is walking accross and is moving from my right to my left this cross is a bit difficult to be used like a standard cross (this would require me to ground her there, and step a quarter circle around her to realign us wihtout loosing the cross, i think - i haven't tried this yet)

Gssh

 

[AndaBien]

...talking about tango in this way, and the perspectives everybody is providing is in some ways completely seperate from being able to dance anything...

Yes, that's what I was trying to suggest.

One of my teaching maxims is that everything I say is wrong - to some degree or in some situation. Anyone who relies on my words only is missing the point.

ETA: Another saying I like is: "When I point to the moon, don't study my finger".

 

[Gssh]

Anyone who relies on my words only is missing the point.

Maybe i need a new signature line, something like

"I am not a dancer, nor do i pretend to be one on the internet - i have just watched a few youtube videos. Nothing i say should be considered dance advice or refers to actual dancing. I do not claim to ever have actually gone to a milonga or embraced an actual dance partner."



Gssh