The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[pianistamediano]

Sheer numbers. Far more middle-age+ dance tango. Plus those suffering middle age crisis and empty nesters with too much time on hand

That's a good point, although I need to clarify; I meant more in the way of why these types of events (spiritual, contact improv-esque, whatever), rather than encuentros or even just tango weekenders.

 

[Brummbaer]

Agree except that part on whether the phrase “external expression” is apt

Yeah. I was thinking external expression of an inner feeling. But you got the idea.

 

[itwillhappen]

That's a good point, although I need to clarify; I meant more in the way of why these types of events (spiritual, contact improv-esque, whatever), rather than encuentros or even just tango weekenders.

I can't see that the participants are older, they are the same age as me.
But maybe you should take a look at the price list:

TABOE

www.tangoatelier.nl

This is perhaps more for people who have already found out that other seminars for life and couples counseling easily cost twice as much ... my son!

 

[Brummbaer]

Hey I found something perfect to tickle your mind

Gen Z men could ditch real women for AI, warns ex–Google CEO Eric Schmidt after a tragic suicide involving a chatbot | Fortune

A mother recently sued an AI company after her 14-year-old killed himself after his chatbot demanded the boy not cheat on it by dating actual girls.

fortune.com

In short Eric Schmidt (former Google CEO) is saying that young men will turn to AI instead of going through the struggle of finding real life partner.

Do I think that will happen. To some extent yes. Both with men and women. How large will be that extent, we can't tell. Who knows with immersive virtuality reality experiences what the future holds. Something as simple as dating apps changed the whole paradigm of how people meet each other and pursued a relationship. It have mirage of false impression on choices people have. There are repeated stats/studies that show 10% of most desirable men on the online dating apps/sites get 90% of the women responding as a match. That over 80% of men struggle to find enough response, forget a match for first date. I never been on dating apps. But I have heard enough anecdotal experiences from female friends and male friends friends. The female friends were inundated with requests and messages. The male friends complaint about not getting much response to their messages. Sometimes it was only a few in six months. I had chalked it up to imbalance in this geographic area of ratio of young single men to single women. In last 10-15 years feels like that ratio has worsened as big tech hired more people who primarily tend to be young males.

When talking to a few men in different geographical areas, they were doing only marginally better on dating apps. While women kept complaining about getting spammed with too much male interest. That's when someone pointed out the rate of responses each gender receives.

Then I came across various articles including some class action lawsuits filed against dating app companies which reveal the stats.

I don't know how true the stats are and how much they support the trend. Most dating app companies do not reveal the data. Their business model depends on people subscribing to the platform for as long as possible. However there are several YouTubers influencers who attract an audience by hammering this point as one of their theme. Not to bring politics, but I suspect this is a part of manosphere that is being heavily reported on after Trump's election. I heard several very interesting analysis on how and why young men got attracted to Trump. That's a different topic, but related and largely due to sense of being alienated by the young men. There have been some significant cultural shifts that started getting advocated by the left and in the mainstream media in the past decade. You don't need a research or news analyst to tell that as it was everywhere. The unintended consequences on the young men seems to be something no one was paying much attention to. A few academics wrote and studied it. Shift towards Trump is one of those unintended consequence. From what I could summarize hearing many commentators weigh in and sociological experts being interviewed, this cohort of young men felt being heard by the Trump campaign. To me it didn't seem like any politics and most expert say this wasn't really political.

The challenge is sociological dynamics have started dictating politics due to cultural wars (unique to the USA?). So without resorting to politics the sociological dynamics are worth discussing as it will also affect dance.

Some can argue dating apps and easy choice to meet a prospective date implies less patronizing of spaces like social dancing. Some could argue the feeling of alienation in young men can lead to boost for social dancing like activity where meeting opposite gender is get easier. That too in supposedly intimate manner not possible in other places.

Don't think that will keep you warm during the power cut - caused by the AI datacenter overloading the power grid and the freak weather events of global warming.

But, as another topic, reliance and belief in AI is concerning

 

[Rabbit]

When I am social dancing, my dance and movement is reflecting the mood of the song - somber, chirpy, fast, slow, melancholy, etc. it is not reflecting or expressing sadness or happiness to the partner. Only in performance that happens.

Counterpoint: most tango dancers vary their movements and dynamics they a lot less than they internally feel that they do. Therefore the common comment that people look the same no matter what the music is. They probably feel something but don't communicate it.

 

[Bailango]

Don't think that will keep you warm during the power cut - caused by the AI datacenter overloading the power grid and the freak weather events of global warming.

But, as another topic, reliance and belief in AI is concerning

And what if when there is not enough power for the AI data center and AI is therefore down.

Internet changed so much of the lifestyle and habits in touching various spheres of life. From connecting with people to buying stuff to discovering people for mating without stepping out of a cave! Imagine when we do not have connectivity or access to internet. It is almost like being marooned on an island.

AI will be far more disruptive. Unlike internet, AI has attributes that will augment itself into our lives as an extension of self. Part of our conscious will appear to extend into AI and AI will seem to augment some part of our conscious. Addiction people feel to FB and social media will look like child’s play. Emotional dependence on AI is going to completely change people’s worldview, their behavior, their capabilities, interactions, etc. Give it 5 years to start seeing early signs manifest. Hard to predict the impact of AI in ten years. Disruption cause by AI will be a lot faster and quicker than Internet.

 

[Rabbit]

It's semantics all the way down; but for my part, the music and lyrics evoke feelings and emotions and thoughts, which I want to convey and express. Would you call improvised jazz on a theme an expression of self or acting/playing a role?

It can be either. I'm not really a jazz guy so I won't talk about jazz specifically, but I like to improvise in other genres. There are different ways to improvise, chain of thought improvisation where you just play the first thing that comes to mind, procedural improvisation where you create a variation using musical theory, and improvisation that attempts to evoke a certain feeling, concept, or character. This last one is related to acting/roleplaying. I use a musical improv exercise similar to acting improv where people can say a random word and I try to play accordingly.

Some might argue that just playing the first thing that comes to mind is the most authentic expression of what the player is feeling, but it does tend to fall into the player doing a default style all the time.

 

[itwillhappen]

I do tend to avoid the 'wellness' freaks looking for some spiritual dimension or hidden meaning in AT rather than just dancing and the social aspects. You don't have to drag all the extra spiritual baggage in to justify it!

It depends.

If you tend towards double role, there is no question whether you are acting or embodying your role in tango. By definition, you act in both roles, and polarity can also only be acted. Or you change the paradigms, so leading and following have always been somehow the same anyway.
A spiritual approach, meaning that you already have both poles within you and should connect with the universe, together with a therapeutic approach, meaning that you do the same when you sit or lie on the floor and feel the other person's fingertips, can here be quite interesting. Personally, I feel that the gender-appropriate workshop "Primal scream drumming in the forest" is missing from the current offerings.

But tango is only a (hopefully) voluntary leisure activity, everyone can choose the level on the scale between equality and polarity that suits them.

 

[itwillhappen]

Hey I found something perfect to tickle your mind

Gen Z men could ditch real women for AI, warns ex–Google CEO Eric Schmidt after a tragic suicide involving a chatbot | Fortune

A mother recently sued an AI company after her 14-year-old killed himself after his chatbot demanded the boy not cheat on it by dating actual girls.

fortune.com

In short Eric Schmidt (former Google CEO) is saying that young men will turn to AI instead of going through the struggle of finding real life partner.

Agriculture, factory work, office work, television, computer games, internet - there have been a number of developments in the history of evolution that have disruptively alienated us from our environment.

Even the tango has been largely alienated from its original purpose of attracting women for marriage and reproduction...

 

[Miradamiranda]

Even the tango has been largely alienated from its original purpose of attracting women for marriage and reproduction...

Haha, are you sure? I mean, showing off your cool moves to get attention, but also especially showing your personality of whatever characteristics you have and can get across during a dance… like ability to listen, caring, assertiveness, sensitivity, adaptability, dedication to improve your art, not being boring but also not gratuitously showing off… you name it…masculinity, femininity… is the equivalent of strutting your feathers and signaling you are mating material. And you don’t have to go through some dating platform’s algorhythms or questionnaires.
And if you are not actually in the market, you could role-play a fantasy of an alternative life that lasts the duration of a tanda. And as a bonus, you get the feel-good hugs.

 

[Brummbaer]

Internet changed so much of the lifestyle and habits in touching various spheres of life. From connecting with people to buying stuff to discovering people for mating without stepping out of a cave! Imagine when we do not have connectivity or access to internet.

I do sometimes wonder whether the current internet has the resilience proposed for the initial ARPANET (yes, we used some parts. I also recollect putting together an early work email system and developing parts for WIMP systems).

AI will be far more disruptive.

I recollect putting together a computer system which made people redundant. It did in a few minutes what took 6 weeks or more. And then working with early 'AI' systems.

But it still gets me that 'computer says' and people believe it without checking, with developers who don't understand verification and validation. The proliferation of AI does, however, make it more and more difficult to check what's real or AI generated.

Unclear how that affects AT. Yes, it keeps the geeks plotting in mom&dad's basement (worrying!). Does it provide a better alternative than 'real life'? Can it help AT? Maybe that virtual reality suit that manipulates the body for those steps with a virtual partner. Is that social AT?

Maybe, post-tech, real contact and dance will be re-discovered (like writing)! But I still see nothing that acts as a 'solution' beyond the old-fashioned way of contact, connection, music and expressing that in dance. And, whatever any 'dating' system offers, it's still going to go back to real people annoying each other.

Even the tango has been largely alienated from its original purpose of attracting women for marriage and reproduction...

A problem seems to be that it attracts women, but not men.

 

[Miradamiranda]

The guys who will understand the value of real human connection bypassing an ai girlfriend will be the real winners.

Maybe a low-tech experience of non-recorded, non-amplified real musicians playing in candlelight-only milongas will be the antidote?

Tongue in cheek, I ask ChatGPT if tango is immune to ai. Part of the answer:

Social tango dancing, like many forms of human connection, is being influenced by the digital age, but it retains unique qualities that make it resistant to complete virtualization. Here's an exploration of how tango fits into this modern landscape:
Tango is deeply rooted in physical connection, requiring shared movement, nonverbal communication, and a sensitivity to another person's body and rhythm. These qualities make it inherently physical and challenging to replicate in a fully virtual setting. While virtual dance lessons and practice tools have gained popularity, the essence of tango lies in the tactile feedback and synchronization that occur in real-life encounters

 

[itwillhappen]

Haha, are you sure?

I'm sure the purpose has shifted to attract men for a leisure activity.

 

[Brummbaer]

The guys who will understand the value of real human connection bypassing an ai girlfriend will be the real winners.

Real life 'hugs' trump anything virtual (even with other relationship issues).

 

[Bailango]

The guys who will understand the value of real human connection bypassing an ai girlfriend will be the real winners.

Maybe a low-tech experience of non-recorded, non-amplified real musicians playing in candlelight-only milongas will be the antidote?

Tongue in cheek, I ask ChatGPT if tango is immune to ai. Part of the answer:

Social tango dancing, like many forms of human connection, is being influenced by the digital age, but it retains unique qualities that make it resistant to complete virtualization. Here's an exploration of how tango fits into this modern landscape:
Tango is deeply rooted in physical connection, requiring shared movement, nonverbal communication, and a sensitivity to another person's body and rhythm. These qualities make it inherently physical and challenging to replicate in a fully virtual setting. While virtual dance lessons and practice tools have gained popularity, the essence of tango lies in the tactile feedback and synchronization that occur in real-life encounters

Maybe you need to prompt chatGPT to imagine where in future you could be in immersive augmented reality with tactile feedback and other sensory feedback.

An interactive immersive virtual augmented reality of tomorrow can mean we can dance tango with similar sensation as in physical proximity though thousand miles apart. That would require certain action (of dancing) on part of each actor (no nothing to do with role playing) Then milongas can have attendees from any part of the world in the virtual augmented reality and we can hop from one milonga to other if we don’t like the tanda

Assuming we can replicate sensation of dancing in physical proximity by using future virtuality reality and augmentation though two actors are miles apart physically in real world, how would you know it isn’t my AI avatar or AI agent you are dancing with You might get a sensation of dancing with a real person but you can’t be sure if the distant partner is human being or AI back to square one!