And you can still follow the the male Leads, even without "bulk", yes?
So, I'm still wondering why "bulk" is something that is considered a thing that is needed for good leading.
The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
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So, I'm still wondering why "bulk" is something that is considered a thing that is needed for good leading.
Maybe I'm not understanding what your point is here. Your post seems to be saying that woman don’t have stamina (utter bunkum), but that “bulky” men do. If that's your point, well......Pppphhhhhffffftt!
That seems, to me, to be even more of a reason to study and train transitions/balance for these things, rather than to try to rely on “bulk” from one of the partners.
It answers the question raised by @Brummbaer in post #954 as to whether the training is worthwhile. To me, the answer is Yes.
But for others, YMMV.
It answers the question raised by @Brummbaer in post #954 as to whether the training is worthwhile. To me, the answer is Yes.
But for others, YMMV.
OK. Let's be clear. I am NOT saying women cannot lead, nor am I saying men cannot follow. I AM saying that, in general males have a characteristic (for which I used the shorthand of 'bulk', but which embodies much more) that, for certain moves in the AT vocabulary, and I cited off-axis moves, make them generally more suited. Yes, of course there are some women in the spectrum who can lead them - but just fewer!
I'm also talking about social AT with a spectrum of followers, rather than some choreographed sequence with a dedicated partner. Of course, you can be selective about choices. Tall, blonde, northern Europeans, or is that a 'macho' choice? It's not Strictly/DWTS pairings!
Leading/following, as a different viewpoint from one's default role, certainly has a merit. Do you want to exercise that role in the public forum of a social dance (milonga)? For me, as a default lead, no. Whether or not others do is up to them! Does it matter how others perceive it, or is it about the internal feeling? That's up to your perspective. Does the tall, large, male lead with the short, petite, follower matter? Well, we've got friends who fit that who've been married for 40+ years. I can think of one AT couple like that as well. But I can also recollect Russian pair skaters where he's effectively a giant and she's petite. Great thrown jumps, but sort of 'ugly'! Does it work well the other way round? OK, we're back to that male 'characteristic' I highlighted - and who you may select in that social.
Is it worthwhile as, say, a small, petite, female training to have whatever it takes to lead those moves? That's up to you! It has a value. I'm simply observing that in the spectrum of bodily build, some males don't look(!) good as followers, nor some females as leaders. Some do. Consider Aoniken Quiroga as a follower! I'm sure he's a more than capable follower. As a female lead, do you want to lead him in a volcada? (Sorry, can't think immediately of any female AT followers of similar build - and that, doubtless, would give other criticism).
Recently attended a workshop with two women working together and changing roles throughout. One described it as exhausting role-swapping but would do it again in just one role only. (Yes, it's a 'sample' of one!). Certainly many other steps they could lead, but they drew a line at volcadas.
But, as far as the topic heading, I certainly don't see dual-role as any type of positive 'solution' for dance.
Not necessarily for leading ALL moves, but, given a, let's say, 'bigger', follower, certain off-axis moves require some mutual support. Skills vary! I'd guess that female leads are also selective about the moves they lead with the follower (male or female).
It is also generational, cultural and age-related (and probably profession-related, if you're a professional dancer), but I'd postulate that in 'general' (mean, median?) females tend towards smaller (petite?) whilst males tend towards relative 'bulk'. Other terms may be available, but I'll stop digging. There are, of course, exceptions. Certainly some smaller females can become immovable when necessary. Any statistical surveys?
itwillhappen
Forum Master
On average, women have about two thirds of the physical performance of men and on average 55% of the muscle strength of men. The best 20% of women have the same physical performance as the worst 20% of the average male population. [wikipedia]
But I would suppose that's not so important, tango is not bodybuilding, also not marathon.
As far as mental endurance goes, that is difficult to grasp, but someone who leads 100% has twice as much practice in it as someone who leads 50%.
I think it is crucial that women also strive for their optimum. And when they start leading 100%, they lose most of their male dance partners. It is often more pleasant to keep the better 50% and get rid of the others.
???
It is pretty obvious that Argentine Tango is DEFINITELY not for me.
(Returning to my ballroom dance lane now [which will no doubt be a relief to the Argentine Tango posters!]).
It's easy with good technique, cores are active, most of the weight actually goes into the floor.
It also depends on each partner having 'good technique'! Unless you're selective about partners, then it varies. As you noted, there are some where you wouldn't attempt to lead something too far off-axis**, but everyone has to learn.
**And vice-versa - as a follower be prepared to stand on the leg brought forward if the leader isn't supporting.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
I am a bad follower (but improving!). I need to be shouted at to follow. I ranked how well various leaders led me, it almost exactly correlated to their mass/size. I think greater mass is easier to read. Note, this is not a necessary condition, a little wisp of a lady was an exception-that-proves-the-rule and led me very well.
I sometimes sweep my dear wife (DW) literally off her feet when we dance. There are very few, if any, 60 kg tangueras who could do that to me!
There is also a confidence factor. Some taller ladies or BBTs have said "I know it was safe to do step X with you, you are big enough for it." A new-to-me taller lady or BBT will sometimes refuse to do an off-axis move with me. Shorter ladies do them without fear. (I'll admit, one time, a large amazon of a lady took all my might to get back to vertical after a big off-axis move -- it was a definite moment of fear and I didn't do that again with her! )
Again, bulk is not a necessary condition, but can be helpful.
BBT = Big beautiful tanguera
I sometimes sweep my dear wife (DW) literally off her feet when we dance. There are very few, if any, 60 kg tangueras who could do that to me!
There is also a confidence factor. Some taller ladies or BBTs have said "I know it was safe to do step X with you, you are big enough for it." A new-to-me taller lady or BBT will sometimes refuse to do an off-axis move with me. Shorter ladies do them without fear. (I'll admit, one time, a large amazon of a lady took all my might to get back to vertical after a big off-axis move -- it was a definite moment of fear and I didn't do that again with her! )
Again, bulk is not a necessary condition, but can be helpful.
BBT = Big beautiful tanguera
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Yes. I find it ironic that the tallest and strongest of my regulars has the wimpiest tiniest barely perceivable volcada and the shortest and skinniest of my regular guys has such good technique and does so deep volcadas I get the illusion of a 45°angle. Multiple left and right after each other. Sure, I plank it hard and dig my toes into the floor and my free leg is always ready to help out in case an abortion of the move is needed, but once I trust a partner has good technique as opposed to bulk, it’s a different game.
This made me think of another favorite of mine. Very short but very bulky. Mass and muscle. The top of his head reaches my chin and he tends to hunch over a lot so he seems even shorter than he is. But boy does he have technique (just not appearance/style). He does all the large fancy moves you’d expect from a Chicho disciple with decades of dedicated practice, but all in close embrace.