The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[pianistamediano]

As mentioned, heels are more than just functional, they represent the femininity of tango. They are an icon of the feminine in tango. I think that most of the women who wear them like the way they accentuate the beautifully feminine way they are presenting themselves at the event. Flat shoes just don’t look good when you have a nice skirt or dress on. It’s pretty basic. We dress up for leaders. Female followers want to be attractive to male leaders. I am not getting into gender beliefs. I am just stating this generally. But their will be male followers who may prefer heels for function or because of how feminine the heels are. It’s the same reason female followers wear them.

All things being equal (dance compatibility, body type, clothes, height when wearing their choice of footwear, etc.), I would cabeceo the follower wearing heels over a follower wearing flats.

One of the main reasons I dance tango is to enjoy unbridled, intense, actual femininity; androgyny is mediocre, and I experience enough masculinity just by existing.

 

[JournalInTime]

Such ego is disgusting in a DJ. It's insulting to the music, not the DJ.

It's fairly both.

Yes, the music comes first, but it's the DJ who's matching this music to the floor conditions, energy level, etc. in front of them. When you don't "dance big to big music," you're not only saying, "Bah, this orquesta doesn't merit my expression!", but also, "Bah, this DJ is a twit for playing this selection now!" If a DJ looks out over the floor, sees 6 couples dancing 5 metres apart, and plays a tanda with a dramatic, driving rhythm that suggests huge strides, only to see them all clustered in one corner doing shuffling little steps, I think they've got about as much right to feel insulted as a chef who looks out and sees someone unscrew the top of a salt shaker and dump the entire thing on fine food.

 

[ardix]

... unbridled, intense, actual femininity...

Now you made me curious: what is "actual femininity" ?!

 

[pianistamediano]

It's fairly both.

Yes, the music comes first, but it's the DJ who's matching this music to the floor conditions, energy level, etc. in front of them. When you don't "dance big to big music," you're not only saying, "Bah, this orquesta doesn't merit my expression!", but also, "Bah, this DJ is a twit for playing this selection now!" If a DJ looks out over the floor, sees 6 couples dancing 5 metres apart, and plays a tanda with a dramatic, driving rhythm that suggests huge strides, only to see them all clustered in one corner doing shuffling little steps, I think they've got about as much right to feel insulted as a chef who looks out and sees someone unscrew the top of a salt shaker and dump the entire thing on fine food.

That's fair, but I would say that it is more of a reflection on a DJ's judgement of the dancers rather than the dancers indirectly insulting the DJ, unless they are indeed intending to do so.

But your analogy is incorrect, because it is the musicians who are the chefs and do the actual hard work of making the music, which is far more difficult than DJing, speaking as a musician; the DJ is the waiter who presents the menu to the guests, influences their choices with their own suggestions, and who serves them.

I don't like how that DJ places emphasis on himself, rather than the music. The music is paramount, and any DJ who places himself above the music for any reason is useless.

 

[pianistamediano]

Now you made me curious: what is "actual femininity" ?!

I have no idea how to define it adequately well! But I feel an abundance or lack of it whenever I dance with different followers.

 

[pianistamediano]

Addendum: I don't think tango necessarily has to be about yin and yang, in the sense of masculinity and femininity uniting as opposites. I fully support queer tango and female leaders and male followers, but I'm just not very interested in participating in all that. I acknowledge that people do think differently from me, but I also demand that they in turn acknowledge that my perspective is equally valid for myself. Tango can be and is different things for different people, after all.

But I do believe that this idea of complementary opposites (however one might define it) is fundamental to tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

A little of both. The highest stiletto heels are absolutely a vanity choice!

For beginner followers a heel will help with weight placement, especially in pivots. Following is a lot of pivots! It will also help with muscle fatigue as inexperienced dancers will actively raise their heels causing fatigue in their feet and calf muscles.

The male followers I know fall into two categories 1. No heels ever 2. Cuban heels are great! They generally have quite a lot of experience before they begin following.

Interesting. I was seriously trying to avoid the whole issue of women, and shoes, and handbags, and dresses, and ... Not forgetting that high heels were once a male thing to hold the foot in a stirrup, and became male fashion in the French court. But, I do take the point that they do look good - and give a certain movement, which one maestro tells me should be intrinsic to followers.

Nevertheless, it is educational to understand any benefits to the follower role. I follow rarely, and usually then with beginners when short of followers (rare these days).

I do, however, do all the pivot exercises with followers - in my regular, flat, tango shoes. I know followers who change their shoes, and even appearance, if leading. And one, who is quite tall, who regular leads in flats, but will dance as a follower in flats spending a lot of time on her toes.

It's made me consider whether I raise my heels sufficiently when pivoting. But then I just opt for what's comfortable and doesn't hurt.

But I guess it's also about choosing your weapons, and that may go beyond just dance.

 

[JournalInTime]

That's fair, but I would say that it is more of a reflection on a DJ's judgement of the dancers rather than the dancers indirectly insulting the DJ, unless they are indeed intending to do so.

It isn't the DJ's job to judge the dancers!!!! Ugh, now that would be ego! The DJ has no right to judge dancers – at all. If I ever learned that a DJ was playing music he considered "safe" or "easy" enough for me, given their judgment of my skills, I'd punch them in the face.

It's the DJ's job to judge the ronda. This is not the same thing at all! They should ignore the individual dancers and look at the shape, size, density, and speed of the collective, as if it were one big organism. Then they should play music that suits the collective as it's currently behaving.

In scientific terms, the DJ doesn't interact with individual behavior but with the emergent behavior of the group.

 

[Be Present]

Great video! I definitely stay on my toes likely too much in my flat shoes. I’m going to try this.

 

[pianistamediano]

It isn't the DJ's job to judge the dancers!!!! Ugh, now that would be ego! The DJ has no right to judge dancers – at all. If I ever learned that a DJ was playing music he considered "safe" or "easy" enough for me, given their judgment of my skills, I'd punch them in the face.

It's the DJ's job to judge the ronda. This is not the same thing at all! They should ignore the individual dancers and look at the shape, size, density, and speed of the collective, as if it were one big organism. Then they should play music that suits the collective as it's currently behaving.

In scientific terms, the DJ doesn't interact with individual behavior but with the emergent behavior of the group.

Apologies, by judging the dancers I meant observing their behaviour and deciding what music to play next! So very much your second paragraph.

If the dancers are, say, dancing canyengue-style to 60's Troilo and moving slowly and rhythmically, well, it's their choice... Okay, maybe this is too extreme a case, so let's use your original scenario (paraphrased):

6 couples dancing 5 metres apart, a tanda with a dramatic, driving rhythm that suggests huge strides, all clustered in one corner doing shuffling little steps

I respect their right to dance the way they dance, but there should have been some indication that they would dance this way earlier. Unless it's the very first tanda. In any realistic scenario resembling this, as a DJ, I would be very annoyed with myself for not having realised that in the first place, and adjust my next tandas accordingly.

I would be much, much more annoyed because they're not doing justice to the music. As Osvaldo Cartery says...



When you dance, you can't sh*t all over them [the lyricist, the composer, the musicians].

Note that nowhere do I take personal offence, or feel insulted by the dancers. What use is ego as a DJ?

That said, my personal opinion of the dancers would take a sharp blow.

 

[pianistamediano]

In scientific terms, the DJ doesn't interact with individual behavior but with the emergent behavior of the group.

It's a fuzzy continuum; using topology terms here, one goes from observing and analysing the ronda as a union of only isolated points (individual couples) to some nebulous union of a connected space and isolated points (distinguishing between individual couples who are behavioural outliers, and the other dancers which we can group together into the same set), and then a single connected space (emergent behaviour of the group). And we just move along the continuum from moment to moment as we observe the ronda.

 

[Rabbit]

Such ego is disgusting in a DJ. It's insulting to the music, not the DJ.

unmusical dancing isn't really insulting anyone, it's just bad dancing. the dancers might well like the music but not understand how to interpret music generally

 

[Be Present]

All things being equal (dance compatibility, body type, clothes, height when wearing their choice of footwear, etc.), I would cabeceo the follower wearing heels over a follower wearing flats.

One of the main reasons I dance tango is to enjoy unbridled, intense, actual femininity; androgyny is mediocre, and I experience enough masculinity just by existing.

I also love feeling ultra feminine and beautiful while dancing tango. And I love the masculine side to it as well. And I love that the leaders tend to appreciate the feminine effort.

I watched an interesting spectacle at a recent milonga. There was a gorgeous ballet dancer follower who looked really hot and was wearing at least 10cm heels. Good leader after good leader danced with her, but she was perfectly awful and danced as if she was fabulous. I could see the leaders disorientation as they were aggressively back led and pulled through completely inaccurate interpretations. One leader friend of mine danced with her and kindly said “wow. She’s got a mind of her own. Buckle up and hold on.”

It was a crowded milonga and I suspect that leaders weren’t sizing up her dancing before the cadeceo. But her femininity was getting her a lot of tandas.

Anyway, i do think that people who dance tango are attracted to the masculine and feminine of it; to the respectful chivalry and feminine reinforcement; to the interplay and exchange of lead and follow; to the agreement of followers to follow and leaders unapologetically l, but respectfully leading. And yes… to the ever iconic tango heels. <3

 

[pianistamediano]

I'd also like to be the devil's advocate for dancers who don't seem to be dancing in a way reasonably/plausibly suggested by the music.

Music engenders different feelings in different people. And there are already pre-existing feelings in them; so combining both may result in feelings that influence their movements to such a degree that, while they might still be staying with the instruments perfectly, don't suggest a highly faithful interpretation of the music. Like, say,

Which is to say, the feelings override musicality to differing extents.

I do acknowledge that this is quite ambiguous and subjective. On Tuesday night, I danced the last tanda with one of my favourite followers, and we do get a bit (okay, a lot) out of control sometimes (while still respecting other couples, mind!). It was D'Arienzo, but we were moving slower and more fluidly than the music would suggest. Still keeping perfect time with the instruments though, I wouldn't be able to call myself a musician if I couldn't do that.

 

[Be Present]

Well I see the promotion of dual role dancing as very much something done in the self-interest of teachers (more classes!)

It was a practical necessity for teaching a beginner class with 30 students. I needed to be able to go around and demonstrate for the leaders or followers and also to follow or lead new followers. It didn’t have anything to do with self promotion. I started leading because it was needed.