The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[itwillhappen]

I am a bad follower (but improving!). I need to be shouted at to follow. I ranked how well various leaders led me, it almost exactly correlated to their mass/size. I think greater mass is easier to read. Note, this is not a necessary condition, a little wisp of a lady was an exception-that-proves-the-rule and led me very well.

We also have to look at what kind of leadership we're talking about.

When I think of a friend who sometimes switches roles with his wife, I get the impression that all women can lead their husbands by the arm. It has nothing to do with strength, it has not much to do with technique, it might be more a matter of habit.
Well, and attending lots of classes together.

When I lead him, i.e. try to lead steps and timing in a close embrace, it's quite exhausting (for both of us). I can do that for two songs, but not 4 out of 5 hours at a normal milonga, or even 7 out of 10 hours like at some events.

 

[Miradamiranda]

When I have led men, other than their lack of experience, the main issue was that they feel very heavy regardless of their actual weight. Exhausting. I can lead much heavier women with no problem. But maybe we are trained to make ourselves lighter and men have been trained to grow roots into the floor.

 

[TTanguero]

I am a bad follower (but improving!). I need to be shouted at to follow. I ranked how well various leaders led me, it almost exactly correlated to their mass/size.

Interesting! I'm a very incompetent beginner follower, but I've found zero correlation there. For me it's 100% about technique, and 0% about bulk. The easiest leaders to follow are both very petite.

 

[Brummbaer]

We also have to look at what kind of leadership we're talking about.

When I think of a friend who sometimes switches roles with his wife, I get the impression that all women can lead their husbands by the arm.

The easiest leaders to follow are both very petite.

That is a key part. Leader responds to who they are leading and their skill. There are obviously female leaders who can easily lead this - but maybe they 'choose' their partners. It also depends on the vocabulary that they choose to lead (and, of course, what's appropriate to the environment and music). Maybe it becomes familiar with that partner - my 'favourite' partner, but almost a choreography because both realise what's being led (that's not determined by sex of partner, even if male leaders are predictable!).

Yes, I've led a volcada with a guy teaching me who's much taller and heavier than me. And he purposely used all his weight to check that I could do it safely. I wouldn't choose to lead that in a social environment with a partner of that build - but, if I did, I'm sure he'd have the skills to respond. I'm uncertain of others until they become another 'favourite' partner.

There are always exceptions, but they don't prove anything in a statistical spread! There's a spread of body builds for both partners. The wiki reference has already been made with some stats regarding the differences. That's not an insult to either sex; it's just what's observed. There's an intersection of the sets which make a good match for dancing. What you consider a 'good' match is up to you. But which dance relationship is considered to 'sell' (generally, beyond the 'unusual')?

Dual-role, or familiarity with the other role, has a value. It's just not a 'solution' to anything in the broader sense, but probably helps personal dance skill development.

 

[itwillhappen]

It's just not a 'solution' to anything in the broader sense

Maybe you could give a definition or at least some examples of "something in the broader sense"?

 

[Bailango]

When I have led men, other than their lack of experience, the main issue was that they feel very heavy regardless of their actual weight. Exhausting. I can lead much heavier women with no problem.

Is this in the class or in the milonga? May be you are leading men who are simply bad followers? You should point blank tell them they cannot follow. Go learn following properly.

When I follow, men tell me I am lighter than other women who are following. However a man who is trying to lead me with arm or incorrectly will find me very heavy. Because I refuse to move unless I am led properly with the frame and core. And I will tell them that. I won’t help out leaders when I know what they want me to do but the lead doesn’t exist. Pull or push me, try strong arming me, I will be the heaviest thing you encountered. I seen some literally bend out of shape trying to make me do something. Since I am following in the class setting it is only appropriate I move only when lead is clear or proper. Sometimes I will switch and demonstrate how their lead feels and how I expect the lead to feel. That mights the bulb in their brain.

But maybe we are trained to make ourselves lighter and men have been trained to grow roots into the floor.

Negative. 70% of the men have incorrect technique. They may be dancing 15 or 20 years. If their technique is incorrect it doesn’t matter how long they been dancing.

 

[Bailango]

I was talking at the end of the milonga with a follower I know well. She was telling me about taking up leading and another 12 week workshop, about leading which is attended by 6-8 ladies all trying to lead. The instructor is someone I see doing performance and social dancing, and I have a low opinion of him. However she was praising how good he was at breaking down how to lead and how to make mid course correction etc. May be he is a good at teaching.

Most of the followers who are trying to lead aren’t what in would call middling followers. Despite dancing regularly for years. If their following has weaknesses that should have been ironed out in the first two years of their dancing, I doubt they can become decent enough leaders.

As I have said so far, I only seen in person may be three or four women (all over the world) who I can say are really good leaders in a Ronda. That includes good musicality. The rest tend to be below median level.

 

[Brummbaer]

Maybe you could give a definition or at least some examples of "something in the broader sense"?

As has been implied before: attracting and keeping both sexes of varying ages to dance AT socially (yes, there will be some polarisation)

Mahler said: Tradition is not handing over the ashes, but passing on the flame (or something like that). At the moment I see 'ashes'.

Being less elitest (well, some people and groups seem to revel in that about their take on 'tradition'), offering a friendly, social, environment, not fusing with other interests to confuse, an encouraging teaching environment, better education about music and dancing to it, new danceable music, something to aspire to (but not hero-worship), even some alternative presentation formats (speed-tandas have been mentioned), good, live, music, maybe even some al-fresco opportunities (not in the rain, cold, snow, or on concrete) to showcase AT. And, mostly, learning from what doesn't work well.

I haven't seen anything trying to hook onto dance shows on the media (Strictly/DWTS). Maybe that's a loser: You've seen it on TV, now try the real thing?

I wouldn't seek to regulate teachers (although some vetting may be considered, but probably not possible without a costly positive approach), but maybe there's something for teachers to be recognised as above par? Teachers having a basic syllabus rather than winging it?

 

[Miradamiranda]

Is this in the class or in the milonga? May be you are leading men who are simply bad followers?

I don’t lead in milongas. Just for fun in class and practicas. Well, the guys I have led think themselves that they are really good followers

 

[Miradamiranda]

attracting and keeping both sexes of varying ages to dance AT socially

Do we have a dedicated thread to recruitment and retention efforts from tried and true to wild ideas? I know we have dissected a lot of ideas over many threads. “What is tango doing right/wrong, recruiting and retaining”?

 

[Brummbaer]

Do we have a dedicated thread to recruitment and retention efforts from tried and true to wild ideas? I know we have dissected a lot of ideas over many threads. “What is tango doing right/wrong, recruiting and retaining”?

There have been a few - mainly post-pandemic related. Social AT's Future, Restart post-pandemic, some from teachers. Why not start one to escape this?

 

[itwillhappen]

As I have said so far, I only seen in person may be three or four women (all over the world) who I can say are really good leaders in a Ronda. That includes good musicality. The rest tend to be below median level.

I see more here, but as I said, that may be because the Netherlands are a way ahead of Germany.

In my opinion, typical female advantages such as ballet in youth and follower experience are exhausted once you reach an "intermediate level". After that, only talent, stature, experience and persistence count. In a certain sense, the predominantly "no alternatives" attitude of the men who are still involved then is a clear advantage.

 

[fiesta0618]

Late arrival, re: "bulk" in leading. I think some useful concepts here might be these:

• Both partners are responsible for maintaining the level of "charge" in the connection
• The connection ultimately acts upon the shared center of mass (COM) of the two bodies
• The less-massive partner has somewhat less influence over the "charge" in the connection and the location of the COM. Therefore, they need to move further and apply greater effort than the heavier partner does in order to maintain equilibrium.

This means that a more-massive leader can request large movements from a less-massive follower using comparatively little movement and effort in their own body. On the other hand, a featherweight leader needs to throw their weight around to properly request even a smallish movement from a more-massive follow.

TL;DR: it isn't a male-female thing or a forcefulness thing, but relative body mass does affect the physics of the partnership. Someone who is accustomed to weighing less than their partner will default to different mechanics than someone who is used to weighing more, and that can be felt in the connection.

 

[Bailango]

As has been implied before: attracting and keeping both sexes of varying ages to dance AT socially (yes, there will be some polarisation)

Mahler said: Tradition is not handing over the ashes, but passing on the flame (or something like that). At the moment I see 'ashes'.

Being less elitest (well, some people and groups seem to revel in that about their take on 'tradition'), offering a friendly, social, environment, not fusing with other interests to confuse, an encouraging teaching environment, better education about music and dancing to it, new danceable music, something to aspire to (but not hero-worship), even some alternative presentation formats (speed-tandas have been mentioned), good, live, music, maybe even some al-fresco opportunities (not in the rain, cold, snow, or on concrete) to showcase AT. And, mostly, learning from what doesn't work well.

I haven't seen anything trying to hook onto dance shows on the media (Strictly/DWTS). Maybe that's a loser: You've seen it on TV, now try the real thing?

I wouldn't seek to regulate teachers (although some vetting may be considered, but probably not possible without a costly positive approach), but maybe there's something for teachers to be recognised as above par? Teachers having a basic syllabus rather than winging it?

Not sure what you are saying. What problem are you addressing ?

 

[Bailango]

I don’t lead in milongas. Just for fun in class and practicas. Well, the guys I have led think themselves that they are really good followers

I can tell you 90% of the men are crap followers in class and practices.