TTanguero
Forum Master
I think what this means is she reserves 25% of the places for dual-role dancers, but they are still welcome to book once the quota has been reached if there are still places available.
The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
- Start date
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Single followers: Sorry, we already have a waiting list.
Double rolers: Pequeña accepts 25% double rolers and unfortunately we already have more booking than we can take. Sorry, but for you, we have Dos Corazones.
We still need: couples (1 leader + 1 follower) and single leaders.
Pequeña – Festivalito – TANGOKOMBINAT
www.tangokombinat.de
Queer tango, as long as it has existed has always been a niche segment not affecting mainstream tango. A few times I have been to queer tango and queer partner dance events, the skill level has been abysmally low. I haven’t seen that change in last 15-20 years. No one talks about it but perhaps queer partner dancing also has challenge attracting dancers whether they are queer or hetronormative. The second challenge is raising skills levels. I can count only a few queer folks who have good skill level and that’s because either they practice a lot or are regulars at mainstream milongas.
Whether it is WCS or Tango, out here on the west coast dual role is still an insignificant niche. The question is not how many start as dual role, but if they remain dual role after 5-10 years. Dancing in lessons in opposite role is not my definition of dual-role. Neither is dancing only 10%-15% of your social dances (that too with a friend) a dual role dancer.
Intuitively dual-role dancing will drive men away rather than attract them. Many scenes already complaint about lack of men. If it becomes expectation that all dancers be able to do dual role, you will also see less women staying in tango. Because the learning curve for leading is steep in all partner dances. Steepest in Tango. So expecting new women to be able to learn both leading and following will mean losing them too along with the men.
There are already complaints of women ironing the seats. Now imagine more people dance dual role, including men - lesser the opportunity for women to dance.
All of which means the existing dancers can dance dual role and knowing others help. But overall you are likely to decrease number of new people (whether men or women) taking up tango.
I don’t know for how many months this thread has speculated benefits of dual role and whether it solves anything. I think more agree it isn’t a solution and more of a band aid.
But no one has talked about unintended consequences if dual role becomes an expectation. Logically to me it only makes problem being solved worse.
There is also talk about whether dancing is a third space. We are so used to partner dancing in traditional roles that we forget that it is also a place for genders to interact socially. Not everyone’s goal in interacting socially is to date. If through dual role you sanitize the partner dancing as strictly neutral place (like work places), it will further discourage new people.
I really find it hard to believe that dual role is going to be mainstream anytime soon. If it does expect significant drop in people who are willing to give partner dancing a try. Same way people have lost interest in partner dancing today compared to say 1950s or 1960s.
Let’s see.
1. Perhaps to guarantee a spot women decide to sign up as dual role. Is there a break down how many women and how many men signed up as dual role in that 25%
2. Is dual role being 25%, help the single role women who have signed up get more dances.
3. Are dual rolers supposed to sign up as singles or with partners. If with partners what percentage of 25% is going to be reserved for a dual role couples
4. Why can’t a dual roler sign up as a single leader since there are available spots. Isn’t that an advantage of being dual role dancer.
5. Would 25% quota or higher, discourage couples and men preferring to dance in traditional roles.
You can see this as a logistical nightmare on whom to accept. But it could also drive away one segment of clients while attracting another segment. I am not sure if there is sound business judgement driving the distribution logic or a personal bias in wanting distribution to be certain way.
I also don't believe it is mainstream or what most dancers want.
It's a solution for the older age group (where gender imbalance is highest), queer tango (where role stereotypes don't exist) and teachers (for obvious commercial reasons)
It's a compromise rather than a solution - and depends what age range you mean by 'older', and also sex dependant. For some 'older' traditionalists it's a step too far in a milonga, but ok for learning.
brujo
Well-Known Member
It feels like the compromise in a lot of tango scenes should just be “everybody leads” ( if they want to ) instead of dual role. And that seems to be what is actually happening. Feels that the few men that want to follow do it begrudgingly but most women love the idea of leading and want to lead.
The men that want to follow can already do this in much simpler dances. It seems useful in class but nowhere else so not sure what really is the point.
The men that want to follow can already do this in much simpler dances. It seems useful in class but nowhere else so not sure what really is the point.
95% of women who want or like to lead are bad at it. Almost all of them lead less than 20% of time. Realistically I would say less than 10%. Over all places I have danced tango, I seen maybe less than 5 women who are good leads.
I have yet to find a woman who is found wanting in skills as a follower but has good skills as a leader. All the less than 5 women I mentioned were good leads, were also exceptionally good followers. From what I see in local scene, most women trying to lead, don’t have good skills as followers.
brujo
Well-Known Member
But you’re comparing them to the men that lead and have stuck to tango vs the beginner men that would exist if tango was less niche. A lot of men that lead and are terrible just never make it to the milongas or just sit and watch.
Learning to lead, or follow, takes time - possibly even more complex when you're relating it to your existing knowledge of a role.
Nevertheless, I agree that there are differences - as with a male follower. The best partnership in general, for many reasons, remains the traditional male/female. Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should (probably in a milonga context; practicas are different).
In nyc a good amount of the queer dancers also are mainstream milonga dancers, there’s not many that only go to queer events. If anything, the avg queer dancer here may be higher level than their straight equivalent imo since they dual role and lean younger.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Most dual-rolers neither want to ruin their contacts with the male leaders, nor do they have the mental condition to lead 100% on a weekend, nor is their experience in this regard sufficient for an encuentro.
Melina once described this once in her blog: heteronormative couples start to feel uncomfortable and complain. After all, they didn't travel there to find a gender ratio even worse than at local milongas.
And for a professional tango organizer, it's problematic when the old clientele would disappear before the new one is viable.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
I agree. Based on my experience as a follower, it's often enough for basic musical walking, but when it comes to "hard" technique, it gets much less common. That kind of thing requires a lot of instruction, experience and partially constitution, even for women.
I have little contact with women who lack decent follower skills. But a motto like, "following didn't work, so now I'll try leading", is unlikely to lead to success.
opendoor
Forum Master
But this is a new development. Until yesterday, the few women who predominantly used to lead performed significantly better than the average male lead.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Isn't that entirely her own fault though? She's trying to balance both clienteles, and there are consequences to doing that as opposed to appealing to one over the other.