The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[Brummbaer]

You present the developments of the last 10 years as the norm. In doing so, you legitimize these developments. I consider the norm to be how things were 200 years ago.

The context was people starting to learn AT NOW. Their norm is what they find now; not over a century ago; not some 'Golden Age'.

In my city, the queer tango scene emerged at the same time as the heteronormative one in the 80s. They have now (almost) merged. In the lindy hop scene, it's also common for two males or two females to enroll in classes.

I'd presumed some heteronormative situation. Might be irrelevant in the metropolis, but not here.

Why do you defend people who are too weak to break free from their culture, their religion, their parents, their traditions?

Why not? You think we should show 'No mercy' and tell 'em wimps are unsuited to AT? Yep, that'll really help You don't need to break free from every tie.

 

[TTanguero]

everyone in the class is at a minimum level of dance and don’t have to wildly adjust

Sure, I've done workshops like that, but that's a very different thing to a beginner class.

 

[brujo]

I honestly can't see any value in that. It's not bringing in anyone who will dance with other people, and indeed they very likely would be unable to do so.

They don't need to and it's fine. Not everyone wants to dance with everybody but they still support the community by going to classes, supporting the milongas and the musicians, taking private lessons and such.

There used to be a guy that used to go to a salsa club and just dance by himself in the corner. He loved the music but felt he didn't want to do the dancing with a woman part as it wouldn't fit with this new found faith. He bothered no one and was a fun guy to chat with once in a while. Older dancers that show up and just watch or can only do three or four tandas due to their health conditions still provide value to a milonga.

It's not like they would be taking up valuable spots in any events anyway.

 

[pianistamediano]

... still support the community by going to classes, supporting the milongas and the musicians, taking private lessons and such.

Numbers make or break the atmosphere of a milonga!

 

[Bailango]

. In practicas they tend to explain things you’re not doing right in following a bit more clearer and often have a ton of fun drills and exercises or visualizations they share from their own learning.

As a leader, I often find myself having to help out female followers with corrections. These are followers who may have been dancing from one week to ten years. I was at a practica yesterday and corrected a follower. The improvement in her dancing was immediate. This is not the first time. 80% of follower (and leader) corrections have to do with either walk (balance and weight transfer) or disassociation.

I have also seen some leaders who themselves aren’t good dancers and have been dancing for a while (longer than 3 years) try to teach beginner followers at milongas. I feel like tearing my hair. One guy was bouncing in the walk he was teaching a beginner follower.

I had a few followers try to explain to me following and they were wrong.

My point is that breaking down and correcting either role is matter of aptitude. Nothing to do with what role you dance. Either you are too new to following and the female leaders are explaining some very basic stuff. Or you by chance have encountered female leaders who are good at breaking down stuff and providing corrections.

In some classes where there are more leads than follows ( since more women are taking the class as leads ), it also takes off a lot of pressure for a beginner guy to just follow instead of leading. Specially when it comes to stuff that requires a bit more understanding like in musicality classes. I definitively see more beginner men following, specially those with backgrounds in other dances. Even a teacher from Argentina said that now the role reversals are expected as part of the classes whereas maybe five or ten years ago it wasn’t.

Class setting teaching is different. There has been a tradition in tango at beginner level of doing drills where roles are reversed. That includes things like walking forward, backward, ochos, molinetes, etc. Most classes would teach drills for these to both men and women. Then you would do it in practice hold, where you would exchange the lead and follow with the partner. Again something that was done 15 years back too.

What was not done in the class was instructor asking everying to do role reversal when in embrace. That was left to individual students. It was also the men that voluntary did the role reversal. Back I can hardly remember any woman in class trying role reversal.

With the younger generation it is interesting to see how many men will want to dance the follower role at socials. Then the next step is to dance it well rather than remain stuck at improver level.

 

[Bailango]

Does anyone else have the impression that there are currently more men than women attending milongas?

Not an impression. But a fact at our local milongas.

 

[Bailango]

(as a cause of not getting enough dances)

The question is what is enough dances. That is subjective and upto individual preferences.

For me 5-6 tandas is good enough. Sometimes I might dance 2-3 tandas and I don’t have any complaints.

I was talking with a follower friend who is in her early sixties. For her she said ten tandas is good enough. She goes out far often than I do. She doesn’t have any problems getting to dance at least 6-7 tandas at any milonga she goes to.

This is comparison of only two people. One required twice the number of tandas for good enough dancing.

I have noticed that followers (women) want to dance more number of tandas than the leaders (men).

Problem is, as evidenced by the reel and comments, it's not doing nearly enough, despite all the anecdotes about how women leaders are their favourites, and surge in double-role events over the years.

Haven’t watched reels and comments. Why would women leaders being fav and surge in double role events solve the problem. It never was going to.

My observation is that women leaders are competing with good men leaders. Not with not so good men leaders. Very very very few women leaders are as good as good men leaders. That’s not surprising. An average man needs at least five years to become good leader if he puts in work. Most don’t and never become good leaders ever.

 

[pianistamediano]

Why would women leaders being fav and surge in double role events solve the problem. It never was going to.

It never was, but apparently plenty of people have decided to use them as a bandaid on a far larger problem and tried as hard as possible to ignore it.

 

[brujo]

It never was, but apparently plenty of people have decided to use them as a bandaid on a far larger problem and tried as hard as possible to ignore it.

Is it a dancer bandaid or an organizer bandaid? In some other dance styles that are more gender unbiased it feels like that choice is out of preference, people try out the other role because it’s fun and normally aligns more with a more progressive liberal view of the world in those spheres. In tango it feels almost out of necessity, not enough men at festivals or classes so they might as well learn to lead instead of sitting around.

Personally I never felt the need to follow as a guy when I lived in a super guy heavy area. It was mostly men leading women and it seemed that most women were content following as they got a ton of dances. It was only when I moved to a more balanced and maybe often female heavy area where I noticed a lot of women leading and became curious about following as a guy in a few dance styles.

 

[Brummbaer]

Why would women leaders being fav and surge in double role events solve the problem. It never was going to.

It solves a localised, personal, issue for some, but otherwise I agree with @pianistamediano - it won't solve the larger issue - at least until societal norms and expectations change around.

 

[itwillhappen]

My observation is that women leaders are competing with good men leaders. Not with not so good men leaders.

In my social circle, I now primarily encounter women who are well-connected and avoid confrontation (at least once things have become established). Why not simultaneously look around to see if you can find a good male leader or if you'd like to dance with a female acquaintance?

Very very very few women leaders are as good as good men leaders. That’s not surprising. An average man needs at least five years to become good leader if he puts in work. Most don’t and never become good leaders ever.

That's obviously correct. The initial advantage gained by following doesn't last long, and if you're only leading for half the time, the time it takes doubles. But it's also irrelevant if there are hardly any "good male leaders" available or if you're well-connected within the sisterhood.

 

[opendoor]

..My observation is that women leaders are competing with good men leaders...

In my city, leading women are among the best dancers and are very popular. Many followers prefer them to the ever-growing field of mediocre and poor male leaders. And these couples are also good to watch. The female leaders stand rooted, dissociate much more, their lower backs is also involved in dancing, they make rounder movements. It reminds me much of the DNI-style.

 

[Brummbaer]

In my city, leading women are among the best dancers and are very popular. Many followers prefer them to the ever-growing field of mediocre and poor male leaders. And these couples are also good to watch. The female leaders stand rooted, dissociate much more, their lower backs is also involved in dancing, they make rounder movements. It reminds me much of the DNI-style.

So isn't that as @Bailango implies? Male leaders aren't wanted there! So, it's not really solving a general problem but re-engineering the landscape such that, in the limit, male leaders are redundant.

Jut to add, that whilst there are some very good, even excellent, female leaders, many are worse** than the mediocre males. And it's frequently a different style of tango. Maybe that's the evolution?

**possibly related to the starting point, but also other factors.

 

[Rabbit]

It never was, but apparently plenty of people have decided to use them as a bandaid on a far larger problem and tried as hard as possible to ignore it.

Once people have reduced tango to an excessively sanitized and polite form anyway, what does it matter whether you're dancing with a man or woman anymore? A lot of people seem to enjoy the sanitized version, even if it's something very different from what was originally implicitly promised.

 

[opendoor]

Jut to add, that whilst there are some very good, even excellent, female leaders, many are worse** than the mediocre males.

Admitted, I no longer have a complete overview of the tango scene in my metropolis:
-I only do attend 2 top traditional milongas and,
-I attend 2 non-conformist milongas.

I don't attend:
-neo-milongas, and there are 4 of them,
-queer milongas,
-these snobbish milongas where the young and everyoung self-promoters meet, there are 3,
-suburban milongas,
-prácticas,
-or classes.

So where do you think the clientele that Bailango always sees tends to be? Perhaps B- or C-class milongas? I also don't know if your perspective aligns with what I consider a suburban milonga. I'm not at home in more rural areas. But I think I'm kind of priviledved concerning the number of milongas in my hometown. Hence my fragmented view.