MediocresAires
New Member
When I dance 5 tandas as a follower and then after 1 tanda as a leader suddenly all the man stop inviting me, it's probably not because they think that I only lead. They have seen me following before.
The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
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itwillhappen
Forum Master
There was a reply from Veronica Toumanova in the fb feed of Christos Kouroupetroglou that might union the points of view:
It think, the "sister network" works, and it works as intended, but you need to have one.
But they observe that you've 'swapped' to the other role; that's your role at this moment. It may just be an unconscious bias rather than deliberate. And it may also depend on how well you're acquainted with them and how invitations work where you're dancing. You might have to work on that mirada to get an invite given you've swapped roles, even temporarily.
AFAIK, there isn't an equivalent for males. Or is there? I suspect it would not be considered well if some 'brother network' was swapping details even of some female follower with whom they really ought to dance.
TTanguero
Forum Master
That's extremely common, in my experience, and not remotely problematic.
Very interesting essays, and a lot of carefully considered, true points in both.
I find myself sympathizing more with the first, than the second, though.
The way I see it, the points in the second essay center upon two two structural disadvantages men-leaders face: a less developed social network among followers, and an overall perception of strangers that a woman is "safer" than a man.
But I would argue that that first one is not actually structural. If a man is a regular part of a community for a significant period of time, there is no reason at all that he should not have the same kinds of social connections as a woman in the same group. If a man lacks those connections, it represents work he didn't do, not work he couldn't do. Failing to do that work says something about the man, and quitting on account of it does indeed qualify as "giving up." I grant no passes on this one.
The second one *is* structural, though. Unfamiliar women being perceived as "safer" than unfamiliar men is a broader cultural phenomenon (and there are solid reasons for it). The thing is, though, the surest way to overcome that unfairness is to actively develop your social network. In a word, stop being a stranger! Because then even if a new woman enters the community, you will have affidavit from the regulars as being a "safe man." It takes time and consistent work to do this...but isn't that just the same as for the dance skill itself?
(Long-term, the structural solution is to shift the common expression of masculinity so that is no longer reasonable to treat unfamiliar men as default-dangerous. But the way I see it, a good first step there is for individual men to live the ideal and try their best to roll with the unfairness.)
I find myself sympathizing more with the first, than the second, though.
The way I see it, the points in the second essay center upon two two structural disadvantages men-leaders face: a less developed social network among followers, and an overall perception of strangers that a woman is "safer" than a man.
But I would argue that that first one is not actually structural. If a man is a regular part of a community for a significant period of time, there is no reason at all that he should not have the same kinds of social connections as a woman in the same group. If a man lacks those connections, it represents work he didn't do, not work he couldn't do. Failing to do that work says something about the man, and quitting on account of it does indeed qualify as "giving up." I grant no passes on this one.
The second one *is* structural, though. Unfamiliar women being perceived as "safer" than unfamiliar men is a broader cultural phenomenon (and there are solid reasons for it). The thing is, though, the surest way to overcome that unfairness is to actively develop your social network. In a word, stop being a stranger! Because then even if a new woman enters the community, you will have affidavit from the regulars as being a "safe man." It takes time and consistent work to do this...but isn't that just the same as for the dance skill itself?
(Long-term, the structural solution is to shift the common expression of masculinity so that is no longer reasonable to treat unfamiliar men as default-dangerous. But the way I see it, a good first step there is for individual men to live the ideal and try their best to roll with the unfairness.)
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itwillhappen
Forum Master
Actually, I do think it’s structural. The moment women want to support one another, a man cannot (and shouldn't) compete. His argument, that entirely different games are being played, gets backed up by my girlfriend. And it’s pointless to try to improve at one game when the other is the one actually being played.
And men don’t have a comparable drive to network; for them, it’s more about competition and hierarchy than cooperation. That’s simply a fact, and IMO it isn’t going to change anytime soon.
All in all, (tango) dancing - which is already far more appealing to women than to men in Northern Europe - is becoming even more attractive to women and even less so to men. There’s nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything to be done about it; the trend is simply - albeit with a lag of several decades - following broader societal developments.
P.S.: That said, I am attending my first workshop specifically for men next week. I don’t have any particular expectations, though; I’m just going because a friend organizes it.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
In a different context, @Gssh once described that multiple parallel milongas can take place within a single milonga. I think it’s great when a woman leads another woman. But I mentally shift that into a parallel universe - one that’s none of my business. It might take a while before I actively look for a mirada again. (And it might take longer, of course, if I happen to see that her leading doesn't look good to me.)
opendoor
Forum Master
Of course this happened 10 years ago, but now I haven't seen that anymore.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
In September 2023, I experienced (in Belgium) likely the last time that an organizer explicitly stated that he did not want women in a leading role at his event. Yet even then, that did not deter the participants - at least not towards the end.
Well, yeah. Compete is the totally wrong frame for the context. It doesn't fit, and shouldn't be tried. On the other hand, if a man wants to participate in a support network, he is generally welcome, in my experience.
That's not a fact. That's a choice. One that men are indeed heavily socialized to make, but step 1 of changing a bad habit is to recognize it.
Look at the business world. Men have zero trouble networking in that environment. Why should social networking be any harder?
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Social Argentine Tango specifically. I don't notice that with other, primarily, Latin, dances - bachata, salsa. AT seems to put people off, even actively discourage them, depending on demographic and location, probably for the reasons already discussed.
It wasn't in my world of computer geeks, mathematicians, software developers, systems analysts, security freaks, other weirdos, and cats to be herded - who basically commune with machines. Also some differences between nationalities. But you learn how to do it and play the role (notably, for me, watching Bill Clinton many years ago on a visit to Oxford).
Probably for me, and work colleagues of that era, why you wouldn't trust discussing someone within some 'network', unless as a job interview or appraisal. The only person I'd trust with all details is my wife.