The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[Brummbaer]

Yeah I do that too. But then it's not unsolicited

True But I've occasionally been asked, or asked, if feedback is ok. I guess it's how it's phrased - and we know about 'mansplaining'. If a partner was really (exceptionally) difficult, I'd involve the teacher.

 

[Bailango]

But I learned from this discussion that leading (even if it's only 1 tanda) could be a signal to male leaders that I'm not open to following, so I'll probably need to be more careful about switching roles in the future.

You can prevent that by initiating mirada/cabaceo to leaders. That gives a signal that you are interested in following. It takes guesswork out of leader’s mind.

 

[MediocresAires]

You can prevent that by initiating mirada/cabaceo to leaders. That gives a signal that you are interested in following. It takes guesswork out of leader’s mind.

I always use mirada/cabeceo, except for my tango friends/classmates where we use verbal invitations.

 

[Rabbit]

By now, I am also quite certain that we are witnessing the "feminization of tango". In Northern Europe, women's interest in tango is significantly greater than men's; consequently, women's needs carry considerably more weight than men's. Quite apart from the issue of equality, this makes sense from both a market-driven and a democratic perspective.

I don't think it is all of tango, just the evolution of a subculture.

 

[brujo]

I have followed more than a dozen followers who want to lead at practicals over the years. They make the same mistakes that beginner make leaders make. I am not referring to those that have started trying out leading. I am talking about those that have been trying to lead for atleast 6 months. That includes some of the "instructors". If nothing else many can be seeing doing various degrees of arm leads.

In my experience there is a lot more hesitation when it’s not the main role you started with. A lot of the followers that dance incredibly at milongas won’t lead at one but will do so at a practica. I think the bar is a little higher in their heads of what is needed navigation wise and skill wise.

The experience is different when it is your only role. A lead that doesn’t follow will only lead for six months. But a follow that is learning to lead or a lead who is learning to follow often proactively chooses to do this. As a male follow, you have to navigate this so much. You build up a list of people that are willing to lead you, whereas in your expected gender role you can more easily go up to a stranger and ask. The learning and practice path is much much longer.

In contrast, newer dancers that I have met that started dual role automatically won’t hesitate to lead and follow at all. To them both are the same. The local college tango club in my city has no cisgendered males in the group, so I know at any time I can ask anyone that learned there to lead and follow me at a milonga. It’s almost expected that every tanda with one of them is a going to be switch Tanda. Same with folks that are in the queer tango classes.

 

[Brummbaer]

You can prevent that by initiating mirada/cabaceo to leaders. That gives a signal that you are interested in following. It takes guesswork out of leader’s mind.

There's uncertainty there. Have they picked up on any social cue that this is now a follower? Weren't they leading in the last tanda? Do I want to 'follow'? Amongst those who 'know', possibly - but that's those from class and other acquaintances. Maybe you don't care since you're dual-role? Or you want to lead. Sure, you can take a chance, which could be worthwhile. And you probably need to confirm any suspicions verbally. Oh!

As @Rabbit opined in another sense:

With cabeceo, unless you know the person well you don't know why they currently don't want to dance and if there's some chance they don't want to dance with you in general, they are incentivized to try and cabeceo someone else instead of wasting time trying to catch the eye of someone who might just not be interested

It's all about the additional social cues since any invite, unless they have other information, is ambiguous.

 

[Brummbaer]

The experience is different when it is your only role. A lead that doesn’t follow will only lead for six months.

Depends on the demographic. Sure, learning to follow helps my leading, but that's not the role I want at a milonga. 'Following', for my generation, wasn't an objective. It probably also depends where you're located, but boys here have plenty of issues with 'masculinity' and their role in society without having what's perceived as a female role put on them. There's a difference between that and choosing to learn to improve your objectives.

I suppose the turn around is that type of youth background historically gave that 'mugre', which is now desired (and apparently taught).

 

[brujo]

Depends on the demographic. Sure, learning to follow helps my leading, but that's not the role I want at a milonga. 'Following', for my generation, wasn't an objective. It probably also depends where you're located, but boys here have plenty of issues with 'masculinity' and their role in society without having what's perceived as a female role put on them. There's a difference between that and choosing to learn to improve your objectives.

That is also the complaint I hear from older dudes that go to practicas - I want to go lead women but when I show up they just want to dance with each other and not beginners like me.

 

[Brummbaer]

That is also the complaint I hear from older dudes that go to practicas - I want to go lead women but when I show up they just want to dance with each other and not beginners like me.

Change your milonga (we go to at least 8-10 different milongas regularly - but it involves travelling)

Change your classes - even take privates.

Find a dance partner (I know that's difficult!). Get a female friend interested in AT - even as a beginner (ok, I know they won't trust you, so work on that). Find another práctica (ideally attached to some group you're attending). It sounds as if you need a teacher guiding a práctica.

 

[opendoor]

..the complaint I hear from older dudes that go to practicas - I want to go lead women but when I show up they just want to dance with each other and not beginners like me.

Please help me to understand your post, brujo. (an old dude is anything else but a beginner)

 

[opendoor]

..More grounded, flexible and upright in strictly the dance context as leaders is where I would disagree..

We'll find out when we finally attend the same milonga one day

 

[opendoor]

..If a man is a regular part of a community for a significant period of time, there is no reason at all that he should not have the same kinds of social connections as a woman in the same group..

Men generally socialize and network much more than women. When I started dancing tango, my phone's contact list literally exploded. The other guys in my peer group were just as active. We always meticulously planned and secured our milongas in advance. Nothing is worse than being at the mercy of the mirada and cabeceo at a milonga. The whole point of networking is to sit at a table with like-minded people.

 

[brujo]

Please help me to understand your post, brujo. (an old dude is anything else but a beginner)

I've met a bunch of guys that tried tango say twenty years ago and didn't continue because of health, relationship, career issues or what not. When they tried again ( I meet them at my beginner classes ) they would try practicas once in a while. To them the vibe was much more different than when they did it before where there were much fewer leaders to compete with. Before it felt easier as there were more follows waiting around for a lead. Now to them a practica felt like "a bunch of women leading each other". This was very discouraging to them and a lot of them just stick to classes for now since they feel they don't get the practice they need at practicas.

 

[brujo]

Men generally socialize and network much more than women. When I started dancing tango, my phone's contact list literally exploded. The other guys in my peer group were just as active.

I think the men that tend to end up in tango when it is not a big local cultural element are slightly more curious and thrill seeking so a lot of the overall social stereotypes for all men won’t apply. The men I meet at tango tend to skew a bit more artsy, have more weird hobbies compared to folks I met professionally.

 

[TTanguero]

I can confirm his observations. As I repeatedly state I am in a scene where there are more men than women. I do observe which men and women get their unfair share of dances. Skill certainly isn't among top two reasons. Which is not surprising.

Yes, perhaps he is also in a similar community. I also agree that skill is certainly not the primary determinant of who gets to dance. Tango is a social dance, after all.

If AI has been used to express a core idea, then I don't mind it.

The problem is that AI is used by people because they think they can't write well, not realising that AI can't either! I'd far rather read something in someone's own words than this type of generic AI slop.