The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[itwillhappen]

I don't think it is all of tango, just the evolution of a subculture.

I have my doubts - a subculture requires a sense of distinction defined by its own behaviors and codes.
Encuentros undoubtedly meet these criteria. If my girlfriend and I swap roles at an encuentro, will we - for a few minutes - become members of a sub-subculture - then revert to the encuentro-subculture? And finally return to the mainstream at the next local milonga, where role switches and female-female couples are more or less normal?

 

[opendoor]

I don't think it is all of tango, just the evolution of a subculture.

I certainly hope that it is already having a lasting impact on the prevailing majority culture.

 

[Brummbaer]

I certainly hope that it is already having a lasting impact on the prevailing majority culture.

Not in a good way!

 

[Rabbit]

I certainly hope that it is already having a lasting impact on the prevailing majority culture.

In most places you can dance whatever role you feel like dancing and not be made to feel unwelcome for doing so. But tolerance is a separate issue.

The claim was that the tango scene is trending towards mainly women dancing with other women and I do not observe this happening.

 

[Brummbaer]

The claim was that the tango scene is trending towards mainly women dancing with other women and I do not observe this happening.

Where that does happen to a significant degree and I (from reports, and some limited observation) it seems to displace the traditional (I don't like that word, especially wrt AT! Let's say accepted societal) male role - and that is becoming increasingly complex.

 

[MediocresAires]

The claim was that the tango scene is trending towards mainly women dancing with other women and I do not observe this happening.

Me neither. Though in my scene probably 50% of women have started learning to lead at some point, in most milongas you'll only see a few women leading. Exceptions are the queer/open-role/women-only milongas.

 

[Brummbaer]

Me neither. Though in my scene probably 50% of women have started learning to lead at some point, in most milongas you'll only see a few women leading. Exceptions are the queer/open-role/women-only milongas.

I don't think there's a problem with 'a few'. It's when it moves on to be 'a solution'. You have already described the difficulty, and ambiguity, of inviting when the cue given may be the other role. Much as I respect individual females and their skills at leading, it's not the same.

Whilst in early days males, and probably females, learned both roles in a single-sex environment, dancing the alternative role wasn't the objective. I cannot see how attempting to teach dual-role universally, or in some majority, in today's society is going to attract males to AT. There's already a kind of male identity crisis and related 'toxic masculinity'. Lack of male leaders seems to be the underlying problem for which this is postulated as a 'solution', but it's a 'solution' for individual females. Maybe it needs to move some other way to provide a 'solution'.

 

[itwillhappen]

The claim was that the tango scene is trending towards mainly women dancing with other women and I do not observe this happening.

I think this requires a more detailled view.

The claim was about a learning environment - specifically for older beginners. Most of the advanced women - themselves older - that I’d ideally choose for workshops would nowadays prefer to attend these "double-role", simply because the learning outcome is greater for them. That includes my SO; personally, I have no issue with it either, though things were different ten years ago.

I keep hearing that double-role classes are producing a new, young generation that naturally switches roles on equal terms. I see very little evidence of that at milongas. The young, talented, hormone-fueled hotshots shine in their gender-typical roles. Meanwhile, it is women well past their childbearing years who enjoy dancing with one another.

When I look toward the Netherlands - which is a few years ahead of Germany in this regard - I feel quite reassured. So far, I haven't seen any dramatic "tipping point" that would turn tango into something resembling a Tupperware or Thermomix party. But we shall see...

 

[opendoor]

..hormone-fueled hotshots shine in their gender-typical roles..
..women past their childbearing years.. enjoy dancing with one another..

I think that’s far too simplistic!

- In principle, most tango dancers —regardless of gender or orientation— want to dance the follower role. Once you’ve experienced that magical feeling, you simply long to repeat it.

- In practice, however, physical constraints get in the way. In my community, there are only two leaders in whose arms I can close my eyes and submerge.

- So only those who can afford to, of course let themselves be led. Everyone else is forced to take on the leading role.

 

[itwillhappen]

Fittingly for the topic, I’m currently reading on Facebook:

We have THREE MALE LEADERS LOOKING FOR A PARTNER for the double role seminar of Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh and Maria Filali. Contact us in case you are interested.

 

[MediocresAires]

I think that’s far too simplistic!

- In principle, most tango dancers —regardless of gender or orientation— want to dance the follower role. Once you’ve experienced that magical feeling, you simply long to repeat it.

- In practice, however, physical constraints get in the way. In my community, there are only two leaders in whose arms I can close my eyes and submerge.

- So only those who can afford to, of course let themselves be led. Everyone else is forced to take on the leading role.

I somewhat agree. Whenever I lead men who have good balance and who learned the basics of following, I invite them to try following me in close embrace. Most have never tried before and are pleasantly surprised when they experience it. I also agree that the leader has to possess certain physical qualities for that to work. We all know that women have to work out much harder to gain the same strength that men naturally have. Even when they do, they may be too short to successfully dance in close embrace with a shared axis with partners of either sex who are much taller/heavier.

I'm not short and I work out my core and legs several times a week and my goal is to be able to lead in close embrace with as many people as possible. I can also lead off axis movements with followers who are my weight or even a bit heavier. Of course, I also have my physical limitations, but less than a woman who is 1,50 m short and doesn't work out.

However, I do not agree that most dancers would prefer the follower role if they had a physically suitable leader. In my opinion the leader role has fare more creative freedom. As a follower you have to hand over the musicality to the leader and hope that it matches yours, and when you're lucky the leader gives you some space to express and decorate. As a leader you can really express the music in all of it's depth. The two roles are fundamentally different and I would not want to miss the ability to dance any of them.

 

[MediocresAires]

I keep hearing that double-role classes are producing a new, young generation that naturally switches roles on equal terms. I see very little evidence of that at milongas. The young, talented, hormone-fueled hotshots shine in their gender-typical roles. Meanwhile, it is women well past their childbearing years who enjoy dancing with one another.

Interesting, I have the opposite experience. I'm a woman of "childbearing age" and at milongas I mostly dance with followers my own age, though I'm open to dancing with any age. But my percentage of successful cabeceos with older followers is abysmal, they seem to strongly prefer dancing with men.

 

[opendoor]

..However, I do not agree that most dancers would prefer the follower role if they had a physically suitable leader..

Such a preference presupposes that the dancer in question was allowed to experience such magical surrender to external control.

..As a follower you have to hand over the musicality to the leader and hope that it matches yours...

For me it's different: I shut my ears completely when in the following role and let my legs be remotely controlled. If I didn't, there would be conflicts of interpretation. I do no adornos nor active following, but keep the roles strictly separate.

The two roles are fundamentally different

Exactly!

 

[brujo]

I keep hearing that double-role classes are producing a new, young generation that naturally switches roles on equal terms. I see very little evidence of that at milongas. The young, talented, hormone-fueled hotshots shine in their gender-typical roles. Meanwhile, it is women well past their childbearing years who enjoy dancing with one another.

How are y’all getting young hotshots in your scene? I think it’s super rare to see someone that is below the age of 35 learning tango in our scene. They tend to gravitate more towards the dances like west coast swing, zouk, kizomba, fusion, bachata that have more visibility and fits easier within their work schedules. Or they go to events like ecstatic dance that requires much less rigor and training and are even kid friendly.

In tango any younger woman that shows up gets immediately asked to dance by all the men and doesn’t need to learn to lead. Whereas the men that show up and are younger tend to either stop going to the classes after a few months and never make it to the milongas, or are the ones that are super obsessed and take a billion private classes and do dances like ballroom and also follow because that is just part of the learning process.

 

[opendoor]

How are y’all getting young hotshots in your scene?

I am 69 years old now and I don't ask any under-30 hotshots to dance with me. Even when I started tango in 2000, I never actively asked followers from this group to dance with me. Perhaps this precisely was what made me attractiv, because from day one I had many affairs with these pretty young dancers. My ex left me even though I was never unfaithful or bad to her. And then suddenly these rare 20-somethings fell into my lap when I said that I had no money, but three children, and that the divorce was not yet finalized. I think what opened the door for me exactly was that I wasn't suitable for a serious, long-term relationship, brujo.