I'm unclear about what is meant by "disassociation". Does it mean twisting the hips and shoulders independently from each other?
Tips for leaders with mediocre dissociation?
- Thread starter outdoorman1234
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I'm unclear about what is meant by "disassociation". Does it mean twisting the hips and shoulders independently from each other?
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
El Beso de Muerte?
Yes. Although I would more precisely say that it a twisting of the entire upper body rather than just the "shoulders". One way to see this is to twist your upper body while seated.
The "ideal" is that whatever else is happening (when you are dancing "flat on" apilado), you and your partner keep your upper bodies parallel to each other.
More or less. I guess when done perfectly (which I don't) the hips and below are facing one way, and the chest and above are facing a different direction.
agree
Believe it or not, I'm a follower who is not going to throw something at you. I actually agree.
Many followers I know have never been taught to do molinete in a milonguero type CE. Of course, most leaders I know weren't taught to lead them in CE either unless they studied the style specifically. It doesn't seem to be the "default" method for instruction of giro's and ochos. Even when dancing CE, many people open the embrace for these moves.
Even if the leader knows how to lead them that way, the follower has to know the style as well. The amount of pivoting she is accustomed to in order to achieve the steps in molinetes and ochos won't work if she is prevented from pivoting by the embrace.
Yep. And the reason she moves away from her partner is that she is trying to OPEN to do the backstep with a pivoting step because she doesn't know to do it by crossing back without a pivot.
Even when using a crossing step, depending on the length and shape of the upper leg, the backstep can be awkward and end up "cheated" (especially if there's no bend in the front knee). At the very least, its not as intuitive as the front crossing part because followers do a front cross far more often.
But even that isn't always the case, since so many leaders get a follower into a cross by leading a forward ocho on the left foot then pivoting her into a cross.
Now we're into the 2 basic theories of the molinete'... who is in charge?
I was taught that once the leader signals the start of the sequence and continues to invite the continuation of the sequence by how he uses his upper body, the follower sets the tempo and the step size (which needs to be determined by her ability to reach, not by his ability to pivot as the "maypole"). Clearly if the leader is doing a lapis or something, he can't provide much momentum or determine how she steps to the music, so she is providing the energy and setting the rhythm.
I truly hate when a leader tries to force me around in a molinete by "over-leading" the move. I can only reach around so far for a crossing back step and if he tries to pull me further, its not good. I'd have to break the CE parallel connection to pivot.
Also, I want to be using a logical tempo such as slow, quick,quick, slow (for side, back, side, front) and if he rushes me through the slows (which is what it feels like when he tries to "move" me through the steps, its pretty dern fast!
The leader can retake control at any point of the molinete to lead something else or create a specific tempo. But if he wants to just do a "normal" one, he should let her get on with it and not try to force it too much!
At least that's how I learned it. I know that some teach it as the leader being in charge of the whole thing, but then those leaders are unable to do a one foot pivot with decorations.
Yes, there are several philosophies on the molinette, although most of the people (I've encountered) who say the woman provides the energy for the turn, will say that the man still leads it. I do prefer it when she does the quick quick slow rhythm, with the back side front sequence. Once I know that's how the follower is going to do it, then I don't have to focus so much on leading the rhythm (as usually, I'll want the quick quick slow to match with something I'm feeling in the music).
Every now and then, I'll encounter a women (usually a pretty good dancer) who will do all quick steps, and that still gives me a surprise when it happens. For whatever reason, it seems more difficult to slow down a follower who wants to zip through everything, than it is to speed someone up occasionally for a couple quick steps.
I find the Apilado CW giro to be quite awkward unless my partner gives me a good strong turn. When she does, I really enjoy it. I have only a few partners who I try it with. I can do it with lots of partners, but I have to come out of the zone to make it happen, so I usually don't lead it.
When my partner was teaching me to provide more momentum and energy for a molinete', he'd shout "GO FOR IT!" as he led the first side step (in practice, not in public!) He would tell me how Rebecca Shulman was a tiny little thing but would surprise him with the amount of energy she supplied for a molinete'. She could whip him around with ease.
Really, he wanted to be HER partner, but he has to settle for me
BTW - either I never really got the level of force he wanted or the fact that I'm I'm providing it doesn't affec his ability to "retake the lead", because he has never had trouble taking back control to make an alteration in speed or step during a molinete when he's wanted to.
Be mindful that not a lot of followers can really do a giro keeping the connection.
Maybe they use both techniques depending on the need?
That could be, but then every follower that dances with that leader would also have to understand both theories and know which the leader is intending for any given molinete', possibly even switching it up within a single dance.
Maybe that would explain why it seems to leaders that followers have trouble keeping the connection... maybe its the leader who isn't being clear, so the follower either pauses or goes independent of what the leader intented for that particular molinete thinking he wanted the same thing as the last molinete..
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Drives me absolutely NUTS! I hate it when she takes off in some predetermined/prescribed QQS rhythm w/o regard for what I intended.
I agree w/ most everyone's assessment of the follower's role in the molinete, but no one has actually stated that the lead can really rui all chances of maintaining connection by losing center. Often, he will lose the center connection in the attempt to open the shoulder for the lead. Yes, this should be done, but not to the point that he turns outward from the follow.
I find that if I do this well, she has a better chance of reading my intended rhythm as well as maintaining connection even if she missteps.