Ugly feet

[Zoopsia59]

I think the point is that varying foot positions can, and are, used successfully for balance. One way is not right or wrong--functionally--as evidenced by the fact that people in different activities all manage to maintain balance while having different foot positions. .

That's certainly the point I'VE been trying to make!

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by hbboogie1
Tango walk is on one line not two. Draw a line on the floor and walk on that line. Each foot should land on the line (like a tightrope walker). That’s why the feet need to be at an angle for balance. Tango is not walked on to parallel lines.

Just watch His feet........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

Ok, so the out-turned feet is styling. I get that. A lot of people do that, all the time. However, He's walking in parallel, and not like on a tight rope. He walks in parallel very closely though. His knees are together, and collects, but still in parallel.

 

[dchester]

If you mean when your feet are together, from the follower's viewpoint, if you are on both feet, any extra time you gain based on stability is more than lost first in figuring out which foot to transfer your weight to in order to pick up the other one, and secondly in actually doing so.

And the leader would have to lead that distinction with EVERY step rather than relying on the follower already being on the foot he wants because he just put her there with the previous step.

Followers who put weight on their free foot are actually harder to lead, are they not? They certainly aren't quicker with the response!

Now if you're talking about the LEADER... well, that's maybe another story. You can take all the time you need to figure out which foot to pick up. On the other hand, you also CAN put your free foot down if you want. As long as you know that it might signal a weight change to the follower... or not... depending on how you do it. What it probably WON"T tell her is to put her free foot down and have weight on 2 feet the way you do.

I was talking about me (and not when my feet are together). The only reason I collect, is due to a style preference, not due to it helping me functionally in any way.

 

[Angel HI]

Angel,
Try this simple walking exercise and decide for yourself which one has better balance.

Boogie, are you kidding? I am not new to this. I am not ony recognized around the globe, but in BsAs as well, as a knowledged teacher, but am a dancer/kinesiologist. I understand perfectly.

The clip from barrefly..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aihvVTl8Bok and, Just watch His feet........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

If these 2 clips are supposed to uphold turnout, I disagree. I simply call both of these good feet. If this is what you two are after... fine. I will say no more. I haven't an issue w/ it. As a dancer, I would not call it turnout of any mention.

I would guess each foot is about 15 degrees from center.

Boogie, please. This is dance...not calculus. Get out of the book, and into your heart. You'll learn something.

... common sense tells you heel leads are for dancing rather fast steps because you can't slow down a step when it's a heel lead. With a toe lead you can dance in slow motion ...

And, as Zoops pointed out, this is just plain incorrect on so many levels.

 

[Angel HI]

IMHO, this needed to be reposted and reread. Thanks, Gssh. Spot on.

What is missing in this discussion of "pretty feet" is in my opinion the differentation between "style" and "function". Style is pretty much a matter of taste, and everybody will have a point in the continuum from parallel close embrace over offset close embrace over v-embrace (half open, half close) to parallel open embrace where they feel at home. Any of these choices will close off some of the potential options of the dance, and open others. The degree of turnout, "tippy-toedness", one or two track walking, and then if leader and follower are on the same track(s) or offset tracks is also mostly a sylistic choice - it will open some options, and close some options, and most dancers will switch between different options - e.g. i have seen the cross system taught as two people walking one-track on two different track, or as two people walking two -track on three tracks, with one track overlapping, and it creates a very different feel, and very different options where to go from there.

What makes a followers footwork beautiful is not really her style, but functionality. each step has to be able to be modified at any time, and the follower has to end up on a stable axis.
We don't collect because it is pretty, but because it makes sure that we are not jumping from a starting point to an (guessed) endpoint, but that we are able to change direction any time during the step without loosing structure. We have turnout because this is how most peoples hip joints work (this is very different from ballet turnout - (which is in my opinion (which might be influenced by the style i tend to enjoy dancing in) not directly applicable in tango - tango legs seem to be conceptually "longer" than ballet legs - ballet appears to value engaging the inner thighs for stability and moving from the hip, while tango engages the pelvic bottom and moves from the spine/below the edge of the ribcage)(and (in my probably mistaken opinion) the parallel stance / pigeon toed stances in martial arts seem to try to talk about enganging the obliques/back to create a unbroken ground path from the foot to the hand (and a turned in front foot keeps the crotch closed - sometimes an important consideration ). We step on the inside edge becasue the way the ankle works means that a foot wont fold over to the outside if we are off, while if we landed on the outside edge we need much more precision and ankle strength to keep the foot from folding over to the inside.

I believe that working on having pretty footwork is at best a detour from working on having functional footwork, and that functional footwork will be pretty automatically.

Gssh

 

[Heather2007]

Ugly feet! I read the title again and again and again..the words "good hair" came back at me. I remember all those years ago when my hair was nearing my bum (I'm a G.I. Jane crewie now as Dave Bailey will testify) and I had to trot off to the hairdressers to have my mane washed. I walked into one black hairdressers and immediately after be seated in the chair the washer commented, "you have good hair" then added, "where are your parents from" I sighed and repeated (as I'd often repeated in the past) "my father's Middle Eastern. He's Syrian. My mother's Jamaican". Throughout the years the same question was to me and the same reply followed. You see black West Indians/Africans (don't know if it same for black Americans) divide the negroid hair into two distinct categories. Soft, long, silky as "good" and short, thick etc. as "bad". And then came the day all that hair had to go. The Afridan barber stroked my hair asked if I was sure that I wanted it all off as "you have such good hair". That was it. I stomped out, went home and made an appointment at Vidal Sassons. A caucasian outfit in the poshest part of London Mayfair. It cost me the earth but worth it to have my hair seen to in mute silence.

And so... coming back to tango. After lengthy meditation on the word "ugly feet" and the words "good hair" jumping back at me. Is there (and I mean really. Think about the word "really" and "truly") such a thing? (Chiropodists and the like do not respond to question...we're talking about dancing, not chapped heels and rotting toenails). For, there is no such thing as ugly feet as there is no such thing as bad hair (hairdressers and the like do not respond to this statement). There is pretty feet and average feet...but never dull feet. There is heavy feet and light feet...but never dead feet. There is quick feet and slow feet but never invisible feet for as long as we have feet...feet will always be...beautiful feet. Deep, I know. But true nevertheless.

And seriously, it does not matter whatsoever how you balance on your feet, you are dancing for you and your partner NOT and the making the dancing a comfortable and enjoyable as possible for you and you both. And so...do with your feet whatever feels good and natural just so long (here I am stealing from the Hippocratic Oath) harms no-one.

Plus, the tightrope walking example (can't remember who used it) I watched the wonderful Man on Wire on BBC2 the other night. And yep, I did spot a turnout of Phillipe's feet as he balances on his line. And so...

p.s. Oooo...I feel a New Thread Coming On..

 

[hbboogie1]

Boogie, are you kidding? I am not new to this. I am not ony recognized around the globe, but in BsAs as well, as a knowledged teacher, but am a dancer/kinesiologist. I understand perfectly.

If these 2 clips are supposed to uphold turnout, I disagree. I simply call both of these good feet. If this is what you two are after... fine. I will say no more. I haven't an issue w/ it. As a dancer, I would not call it turnout of any mention.

Boogie, please. This is dance...not calculus. Get out of the book, and into your heart. You'll learn something.

And, as Zoops pointed out, this is just plain incorrect on so many levels.

Boogie, are you kidding? I am not new to this. I am not ony recognized around the globe, but in BsAs as well, as a knowledged teacher, but am a dancer/kinesiologist. I understand perfectly.

“It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows”

Gee sorry I didn’t recognize you. Who are you?


“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you”

 

[Gssh]

IMO, If you didn't collect, you could have weight on both feet, be more stable, and have a little extra time to be sure about what you were going to do. It just doesn't look as good as collecting, though.

I don't see what you mean here (problem of writing about dance ). The situation i was imagining was e.g. stepping forward with the right and then sideways with the left. When collecting the route of the left foot is l-shaped - first straight ahead till it reaches the right foot, then straight left. When not collecting the foot goes more or less diagonal from the starting point to the end point. Changing my mind would be instead of stepping to the left deciding to step straight ahead, or pivot and step forward (formerly my right)?

Gssh

 

[barrefly]

hbboogie,
Missy was taught to walk one foot in front of the other. What I am noticing (and I think your clip shows this..) is that the lead uses straighter lines as he brings his rear foot to the front...and the follow seems to use a curved sweeping motion as she brings rear to front. (almost a snaking action.) Am I on to something or is Missy starting a bad habit?

 

[Gssh]

I largely agree with you. Ultimately, though, I'd like to have a pretty style to my footwork, and know that a good portion of that comes from good technique. I feel like I've reached a plateau, however, and am trying to figure out how to get past it.

Generally speaking, my footwork is functional. My balance isn't perfect, but it's definitely good enough for 99% of the social dancing I encounter. My movement isn't perfect, but it's not garbage either. What can i say? My tango is a work in progress, which I'm OK with.

But haven't you ever watched other people dancing--women or men, or seen video clips, and one of dancer's footwork just stands out as being absolutely gorgeous? Sure, other dancers have perfectly functional footwork and perfectly functional technique, but some footwork just stands out as being stunningly beautiful. What I can't figure out on my own is what sets their footwork apart? What are they doing differently that creates those beautiful looks? What tips to people have for someone working towards functional beauty--however that's interpreted--little by little?

What i meant when i wrote "functional" is not "good enough for all intents and purposes", but "done this way because it serves a function". In my opinion these beautiful looks are a result of a dedicated quest for the perfect balance, for movement that is good enough for that last 1 percent of social dances. Sometimes I see followers trying to imitate parts of "beautiful footwork", and it looks just bad to me because they have only seen the outside form, and not the inside function. E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUlA75wbtlg at 0:37) - this is not about the tap, but about her being perfectly balanced, and that she knows what options the leader has, and that she also trusts herself to still be able to get anywhere that might be asked of her - or from 1:48 to 2:03 - she knows how much time she needs, what space she takes, and where exactly he foot should be landing, and i am pretty convinced that javier could have taken her out of this any time he wanted, in any direction he wanted. (actually i think her more recent footwork has become a bit too theatrical for my taste - her leader has to create space for it, while she used to just let it flow into the dance). And i see a lot of followers trying to do this kind of things without the perfect balance, and awareness of the lead, and then it might look somewhat similar from the outside, but feels very different to a leader, and does not enhance the structure of the dance. But talking about this is in the end pretty useless - while good structure is theoretically universal peoples bodies and styles are quite ideosyncratic, and in my experience the only way to get at it is by careful, individual attention from somebody who has deeply understood how things work, or by spending a lot of miles on the dancefloor, ruthless introspection and spending a lot of time trying out different things.

Gssh

 

[hbboogie1]

hbboogie,
Missy was taught to walk one foot in front of the other. What I am noticing (and I think your clip shows this..) is that the lead uses straighter lines as he brings his rear foot to the front...and the follow seems to use a curved sweeping motion as she brings rear to front. (almost a snaking action.) Am I on to something or is Missy starting a bad habit?

Missy is learning the proper way to walk but It’s more like a cat then a snake. In fact Orlando Piava named his signature move “salida del gato” exit of the cat.
All any of us can do is dance at our own level as best we can. We all form opinions based on who or what we’ve been exposed to. Missy is being exposed to a good instructor in Felix.

 

[dchester]

I don't see what you mean here (problem of writing about dance ). The situation i was imagining was e.g. stepping forward with the right and then sideways with the left. When collecting the route of the left foot is l-shaped - first straight ahead till it reaches the right foot, then straight left. When not collecting the foot goes more or less diagonal from the starting point to the end point. Changing my mind would be instead of stepping to the left deciding to step straight ahead, or pivot and step forward (formerly my right)?

Gssh

Basically, you're much more effective than I am, at explaining tango stuff in the written word. I believe I understand what you are saying. It's just not been my experience that collecting helps me (other than with respect to looks/style). I do collect though (at least when I remember to). Collecting (in my mind) requires two movements with my free foot (such as forward, then side). By not collecting, I could just wait longer before making the one move, rather than making two moves (as for me, the two moves takes longer than the one foot move).

I'll just add that my size and body shape are not typical of a dancer, thus some things that work for me, may not work for others (as well as the reverse). To be clear though, I do collect (at least most of the time). It's just that I do it for one reason, the looks/style. It doesn't help me (functionally) in any way, as far as I can tell.

 

[Ampster]

Disregard... Zapped my last entry. Couldn't stand my own sarcasm

 

[Gssh]

Disregard... Zapped my last entry. Couldn't stand my own sarcasm

Ooooh . I am too late .... i like sarkasm .

 

[Gssh]

It doesn't help me (functionally) in any way, as far as I can tell.

I think it has to take longer (disadvantage of not living in a 1-normed space ) but the functional advantage is (i think) that i can abort at the moment of collection, find the base, and move in a different direction - which is admittedly a mostly theoretical advantage - if i need to change my mind that often that this really becomes a factor i have probably have messed up my floorcraft beforehand...

Gssh