What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[itwillhappen]

Being a wall flower is not enjoyable. The pro-am competitive sphere gives them the opportunity to dance regular, at a higher level and be able to learn.

With the money for pro-am, you can also "buy" a practice and dance partner for social dancing, one which will help you shine.
At least in Europe, however, the open use of wealth in both settings doesn't lead to high social status — so you may no longer be a wallflower, but you might still feel uncomfortable.

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm an old person; so is my husband. We like competitions.

There are lots of funs things about competitions even apart from the actual "competition" aspect. But it is definitely the case that engaging in competition focuses us and motivates us to improve a number of important things. It also motivates focus. We compete ballroom- but in terms of motivation, I don't think that's unique. The thing is: competition doesn't only motivate the young.

We're both 'old', and despise competitions. On the other hand, watching a skilled couple use accessible moves and their techniques are motivating.

Experience is that competition kills recreational pastimes. We've seen that in other recreational dance. Competition, for us, isn't a motivation to get better - rather the opposite. Being a good/better social lead/follow is a motivation - and great dances together.

Competitive 'stage' (fantasia) tango with moves beyond one's age just isn't a motivation. [Social] Dance has to be accessible. It's another skill to dance with other levels (how do you assess them?)


But, to each their own.

 

[Brummbaer]

The point about not competing in the streets is an interesting one. I'm going to have to think about it. I'm aware that there's evidence that dance can "get kids off the streets," but the relevant research has been on community-center lessons and mostly street-dance styles keeping kids in underserved communities away from criminality, particularly gangs.

That is interesting, but I'd consider it a myth propounded by the movies and US culture. Boxing and martial arts are also considered to keep 'kids off the streets', but instead of viewing a controlled skill it seems to lead to crowd viewing someone/many getting beaten in a pit with a crowd cheering on as blood flows. Probably not the intended ethos.

 

[itwillhappen]

Just because one doesn’t have a partner or have a partner willing to dance shouldn’t mean these mature women shouldn’t be able to dance.
My advice is to work really hard at becoming good or learn to lead.

My advice — if I were asked — would be not to fundamentally expect more or different things from tango than from the other life, to take a realistic look at yourself. Whether investing significant resources to become attractive (what is not equal to good) is at least questionable. And if, as an older woman, you're happy dancing with other older women, then everything's fine.

In some places you can’t take classes if you don’t have a partner, which is stupid. I’d never have learned had I not had the option of drop in classes without partner. It’s also money not going into the teachers’ pockets.

That may be the case somewhere, but it's become rather rare. Those who don't have requirements will at least be matched with another dance partner who also doesn't have requirements.

 

[Brummbaer]

Here, it's common for single women to go to social dance events, even at an advanced age

Indeed. Quite a few solos of both sexes. Even in 80's & 90's. Some with partners who don't/won't dance. Seems to be more in the ceroc/WCS scene.

The major separation seems to be between a much younger (20's, 30's) scene who've discovered tango and wish to re-impose some old cultural ways - a sort of longing for a mythical 'retro' environment in which to hunt, and those in their late 50's, 60's... (retirement) who may dance very well, and wish to continue to improve, or 'good enough', but also want a social aspect.

 

[Brummbaer]

That may be the case somewhere, but it's become rather rare. Those who don't have requirements will at least be matched with another dance partner who also doesn't have requirements.

That's the 'recruiting' issue - and depends on numbers in a class. In a metropolitan area where classes may be large, some solos can be integrated. Where it's only a small class, possibly not. Those are more similar to workshops. We'd expect to change partners in a workshop, but for it to be role matched.

 

[Brummbaer]

because it siphons off some of the folks who cannot help themselves from behaving competitively.

Interesting concept. A former manager, commenting on viewing some special forces operation, was that at least it kept them off the streets.

I guess, in AT, 'competition' is generally remote from the social side. Sure, we get ex-competitors and winners on their tour to earn some money. Maybe it attracts the young in AT, or fortunately siphons off those who are older and still want that scene.

 

[itwillhappen]

There are people who can only work toward perfection with the encouragement of an external reward, like winning something, but there are plenty of us who don't need that. For me, the internal reward of self-improvement is more than enough. Where it gets weird is when hyper-competitive people see that self-improvement and try to compete with it, believing I'm pursuing it just to show them up. Which simply isn't the case . . . I rarely to never compare myself to anyone but myself in the past!

Most people experience their limits when they are not securely integrated into a social (tango) community, i.e. when they can't find (adequate) dance partners or far too few. Through your pervasive perfectionism, you avoid this border experience, you should be "good enough for someone".

For my perception and evaluation of external requirements is it for sure relevant whether my skills are above or below average. And I can only determine this perceived average by comparing myself with other (comparable) people. And it certainly influences my decision as to whether and in which direction I "invest". Also, whether I am the actual beneficiary or others.
I'm currently developing myself because my girlfriend is implicitly entitled to set requirements and symmetrically fulfills them herself.

 

[lucia_l]

At least in Europe, however, the open use of wealth in both settings doesn't lead to high social status — so you may no longer be a wallflower, but you might still feel uncomfortable.

I haven't seen many people hire a taxi dancer around here. There is one quite elderly lady who sometimes brings her teacher to dance with her. She's frail. No one looks down on her doing so. I think many of the gentlemen are likely glad about it because she's so frail they would worry about dancing with her.

If my husband is gone when I'm 80 and I can still dance, I'll hire a taxi dancer. I won't be uncomfortable. Who cares what people think? I'd rather dance than come and sit there not dancing.

 

[JournalInTime]

tango competitions rub me the wrong way since it’s so monotone with its style

Yes, and that would put me off even if I were competitive.

I've attended "How do you dance in the Mundial?" seminars at the insistence of others. The answer is not, "As you like, as long as you respect the rules – but try to stand out." The judges have expectations regarding abrazo, walk, figures (I don't mean "which figures are permitted," but "which permitted figures you actually choose"), and even overall appearance ("Oh, look, yet another guy in a black suit with shiny black shoes and a high-cut fade haircut!"). If you stray from this, you are very unlikely to win even if you are technically and musically impeccable.

Granted, I am talking about tango de pista. That's because I'm a social dancer, not a stage dancer. I realize that tango escenario is more forgiving in the above regards . . . there, the judges are looking for something that pops, which can even be weird.

I might be interested – for the experience and not the competition – were there a tango milonguero casual track or something, where you have to keep your feet on the floor and dance polite social figures, but in a way you might during an evening out on a crowded floor, not on a stage where you're expected to parade around with a huge walk and pause at musically bizarre moments.

 

[JournalInTime]

If my husband is gone when I'm 80 and I can still dance, I'll hire a taxi dancer. I won't be uncomfortable. Who cares what people think? I'd rather dance than come and sit there not dancing.

The stigma attached to this is unjustified and unjustifiable. I'll be honest:

When I worked as a part-time barman and the role balance was off, my employer (female, follower) took my place at the bar, said she would pay my hours while I danced with the sitting women, and afterward gave me the bar tips. At a different milonga, I was often admitted for free and given free drinks in return for dancing with sitting women. I've even had women I don't know well insist on picking me up, driving me to a milonga, paying at the door, and driving me back afterward in return for lots of tandas with them.

Those feel like things that could happen to any clean, polite leader who doesn't have two left feet. The line is irrelevantly fine between "paid by a third party" or "paid in kind," as above, and "paid directly by a partner," as for a classic taxi dancer. In a court of law where I live, were we talking bribes or other illegal payments, all of the above would be considered equally admissible.

And to be clear, I'm in a monogamous, non-swinger couple* and this is strictly dancing. There's no attached expectation of "extras." I've never felt that vibe from people I was paid to dance with, admitted free to dance with, engaged as a partner for, etc. By contrast, I've definitely had an "I want extras" vibe from certain people I've invited socially. A few have been utterly inappropriate.

I'm totally convinced that if goods or money change hands, the sole expectation is "I will dance a lot." I'm also totally convinced that "I might go home with this guy" is something that happens primarily when an ordinary invitation to dance is construed as greater interest.

—

* My girlfriend wants to be my agent, and has already asked me why I don't charge for this, by the tanda and by the evening.​

 

[fiesta0618]

I might be interested – for the experience and not the competition – were there a tango milonguero casual track or something, where you have to keep your feet on the floor and dance polite social figures, but in a way you might during an evening out on a crowded floor, not on a stage where you're expected to parade around with a huge walk and pause at musically bizarre moments.

Not to be, I'm afraid. Though I agree it would be nice.

In my experience, every partner dance that develops a competition culture also sees a divergence of the social and competitive form. Which makes sense, as one is designed principally to be watched and judged, and the other to be felt by the dancers.

There is a movement in Ballroom that arose not so long ago for competitive events where pros are restricted to Syllabus steps, which is broadly equivalent to making them dance in a style close(r) to the social form. I find it fascinating and inspiring to watch familiar movements danced with such excellence. Sadly, this is not remotely a universal opinion in the competitive crowd, because--and it is true--the syllabus restriction reduces the range of movement options, and thus is "less exciting to watch."

To watch; that is the key. Competitive dance is a form meant primarily for watching, not feeling. A very different aim, indeed. You can see it even in the Pro Basics; it may consist of social-normative patterns, but still *very* far removed from social-normative styling.

 

[tangoing]

Not to be, I'm afraid. Though I agree it would be nice.

In my experience, every partner dance that develops a competition culture also sees a divergence of the social and competitive form. Which makes sense, as one is designed principally to be watched and judged, and the other to be felt by the dancers.

There is a movement in Ballroom that arose not so long ago for competitive events where pros are restricted to Syllabus steps, which is broadly equivalent to making them dance in a style close(r) to the social form. I find it fascinating and inspiring to watch familiar movements danced with such excellence. Sadly, this is not remotely a universal opinion in the competitive crowd, because--and it is true--the syllabus restriction reduces the range of movement options, and thus is "less exciting to watch."

To watch; that is the key. Competitive dance is a form meant primarily for watching, not feeling. A very different aim, indeed. You can see it even in the Pro Basics; it may consist of social-normative patterns, but still *very* far removed from social-normative styling.

Isn’t ballroom culture inherently geared towards competition and not social though? I’ve heard from people who danced it that basically from day 1 you’re adhering and training for competition, and social dancing is less common (the inverse of most other social dances).
Also how the ballroom version of many of the dances is just radically different from the original version in the sense it’s just stripped of the culture and made to look flashy (see tango for the most obvious example).

 

[Brummbaer]

There is a movement in Ballroom that arose not so long ago for competitive events where pros are restricted to Syllabus steps, which is broadly equivalent to making them dance in a style close(r) to the social form. I find it fascinating and inspiring to watch familiar movements danced with such excellence.

Interesting. That was the early ethos in ice dance where competitors had to skate the set-pattern recreational dances, and figures. Torvill & Dean, and others, broke that with themed dances. It was no longer accessible to the many recreational dancers, and the demise began. You had to be technically 'good', and more. IMHO the mistake was then compounded by recreational 'competition'. The 'fun' was taken away because there'd always be someone younger, fitter, with more training. Prospective fodder for bigger and better competitions - and then there are those who don't make it.

Similarly with AT. Who wants to go to a miserable milonga with unwritten rules, maybe where you have to 'qualify', and then to be snubbed by the self-proclaimed 'elite'? Of course, the 'elite' now run off to encuentros.

I guess that simply points out the need for milongas of varying status.

 

[JournalInTime]

Isn’t ballroom culture inherently geared towards competition and not social though?

That's also my understanding.

A couple who are good friends of mine here have an interesting view of dance:

He is an avid AT dancer and, like me, anti-competitive. He specifically likes AT because it's social, and uses it as the core of his social life. He mostly dances with . . . well, whomever he invites for the tanda.

She is an avid ballroom dancer. She specifically likes ballroom because of the structure and competition, and also because she's socially shy and wants nothing to do with social dance. She claims that ballroom has no social side at all here – it exists only in the classroom for instruction, in the studio for practice, and at events for competition. She mostly dances with a partner she otherwise doesn't have interactions with.

I will ask her (again) when I see her next week whether there are socials and she just doesn't go to them, but honestly, I don't think there are socials. I think that, here at least, ballroom is innately a competition style with no social existence.