What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[fiesta0618]

The word "ballroom" exists in a broad and a narrow version, just like the word "social". However, in many countries, the concept of "ballroom" has become synonymous with the organized business.

I'm perfectly ready to believe this. Makes sense. Localized differences.

And I think this also holds true for DF.

But this is not true at all. And people in the Ballroom forum keep telling you over and over and over again that it's not true.

The most unfortunate thing is, this persistent error in the face of repeated correction makes it tougher for me to unreservedly accept your statement above, even though it seems perfectly reasonable at face value.

 

[opendoor]

And thank you for being so patient, fiesta!

 

[lucia_l]

Isn’t ballroom culture inherently geared towards competition and not social though?

Nope.

I’ve heard from people who danced it that basically from day 1 you’re adhering and training for competition, and social dancing is less common (the inverse of most other social dances).

I go out social dancing at least once a week. Admittedly, the social dances are a mix of ballroom and club dance. But people dance Waltz, Tango, Foxtrot, Rhumba etc. socially. I also compete. There are tons of social ballroom dancers around here. Many social dancers around here like a variety of dances, so that's what we get at the social dance.

Also how the ballroom version of many of the dances is just radically different from the original version in the sense it’s just stripped of the culture and made to look flashy (see tango for the most obvious example).

I'm not concerned about "culture" when I social dance. And honestly, I"m not even sure what "stripped of" or "infused by" culture means. Is West Coast Swing "stripped of culture"? I don't have any desire to pretend I'm living in 18th century Vienna or Victorian England when I dance the waltz.

As for "culture" in Tango, wasn't it originally danced by men with men because so few women were allowed to dance it? And wasn't it originally associated with brothels? I suspect those "cultural" aspects have been stripped.

 

[lucia_l]

She is an avid ballroom dancer. She specifically likes ballroom because of the structure and competition, and also because she's socially shy and wants nothing to do with social dance. She claims that ballroom has no social side at all here – it exists only in the classroom for instruction, in the studio for practice, and at events for competition. She mostly dances with a partner she otherwise doesn't have interactions with.

That's a her thing. I know ballroom dancers who don't dance socially. If I look around the local area, they are outnumbered by the ones who do dance socially. But as far as some of the 'compete only' dancers the socials and the people who go to them "don't exist". Yet.... there the socials are.

I will ask her (again) when I see her next week whether there are socials and she just doesn't go to them,

She'll probably tell you they don't exist. I know several people dance pro-am who remain unaware of the socials. They continue to be unaware even though I mention going to them. They always say things like "Oh! I didn't even know! I should go!".... The topic comes up again a year later and once again, "Oh! I didn't even know! I should go!" It's pretty funny actually.

but honestly, I don't think there are socials. I think that, here at least, ballroom is innately a competition style with no social existence.

Maybe there aren't any social ballroom dances in your area. There are at least 2 social ballroom dances in my driving area each week (Fri and Saturday where I take lessons). There are usually others too, but I don't keep track. There are also country western social dances and WCS social dances every week.

 

[lucia_l]

[...], the ballroom world now also offers social dancing.

Now? As in not before?!

When didn't ballroom offer social dancing. My grandparents danced ballroom socially; Mom says her parents favorite dance was Peabody. My mom danced socially as a child. My in laws danced socially as children and later adults. The passed away a decade ago having lived passed 90. I danced ballroom socially in grad school-- the 80s.

Did my great grandparents dance socially? I don't know. But I'm under the impression social dancing existed. I've seen videos of people dancing to big bands during WWII and other dancing during WWI.

 

[pianistamediano]

Her level is not very high. ... Next time I saw her, she was complaining that she found it was useful to get first dances, but that she also knew she didn’t have the level to give these guys a really good dance, so they might ignore her next time she tried. She is married to a non dancer. How can she improve without a partner?

I'm a leader — and I've survived the years of rejection, ignoring and dismissal most leaders will go through. All this without having ever had a partner, let alone a regular partner. I rarely went to prácticas either. The vast majority of good followers (understandably) ignored me. I started in a relatively small community.

She can most definitely improve by leaps and bounds, she just needs to do what I do, which is to focus, work hard, and be mentally resilient. She can actually dance with much better leaders more often; I didn't, excepting rare occasions. Not sure why she's complaining when she has all these massive advantages, plus you say she's good-looking and looks younger than she really is.

If the community is too small, she should learn all she can and then travel. If it is large enough, then she doesn't really have an excuse as a follower unless she is being ignored by most of the dancers — better or worse.

 

[fiesta0618]

How can she improve without a partner? I couldn’t answer, knowing our local community doesn’t accept solo followers in class. All I could say was that I’d gladly meet at a practica and I can practice leading. But the practicas are more like casual milongas, so I’d likely be dancing a lot more as a follower.

My advice would be for her to understand the difference between individual skills and partner skills. Individual skills can be practiced alone. In fact, it is easier and more effective to practice them that way!

I think everyone understand that great partnering skills can override many issues with weak individual technique, but it turns out that the reverse is also true. Someone who is more finely balanced can respond more precisely and readily to a lead, even if the contact points they use are muddy and inconsistent. Someone who moves their own weight in response to a signal will almost always feel better than someone who is overly passive and waits to be moved, no matter how (in)sensitive their reactions.


IMO, the toughest thing is not the skills practicing per se, but getting timely, trustworthy, high-quality feedback on the results of your solo work. This, I think, is where your offer to play leader at the practica would offer the greatest value. Your expertise as a follower will be golden for her.

Partnering skills, for better or worse, are best practiced "in the field," and working with stronger leads is the most helpful for building them. The foibles of weak leads can reinforce defensive bad habits. Which is unfortunate, because it is easier, as a beginner, to get a volume of dances with the weaker leaders.

We muddle through, one way or the other...

 

[Miradamiranda]

It’s not that I’m offering to be her private teacher. Occasionally I could meet her there, but I’d also be busy dancing with others. I brought her up in this thread because of recruitment issues, as an example of someone who could really use professional instruction in classes. (She also has the budget for it.) But because she doesn’t have a partner, can’t take such. She is motivated to improve, but I don’t think it’s enough to just learn by going to milongas. Also, it’s not even every week we have a 2- hour practica. She could take private lessons, that’s all I can see. Others in her situation might not have that option financially.

 

[Miradamiranda]

My wife's just arranged to loan me out as a leader to any solo follower in a workshop she can't attend

Put my name on your waiting list

 

[Brummbaer]

not within the framework of organized dance schools

Restricted to dance schools, that makes sense. A consequence of a growing infatuation with metrics. You've got to have some scale to say you're the best teacher, most effective, etc, so you measure your success against others. If you're paid for producing widgets, then you'll get widgets - even if the warehouses are overflowing and no one now wants to buy them.

But AT in the wild has never had standards and there's no qualification for AT teacher. You end up choosing your teacher initially either because there's no other option, or you sought some views from others, you liked the style, or you tried some out.

After that beginner, novice phase, then you look for privates and someone who's good at communicating (pedagogy), interested in your development, and adds something.

 

[Brummbaer]

As for "culture" in Tango, wasn't it originally danced by men with men because so few women were allowed to dance it? And wasn't it originally associated with brothels? I suspect those "cultural" aspects have been stripped.

Danced by men with men... there's certainly some evidence for that in addition to later practicas (to be good enough to dance with a woman and not dishonour the teacher), but also attributed to a shortage of female immigrants. Evidently women learned to dance as well, but less documented. Mothers and brothers are assumed to have played a role.

associated with brothels... in part, but a much older heritage outside. Piringundines, drinking dens, brothels, casinos, bars - where men chose to gather and relax. Dances (tandas?) were offered for tin chips collected in the 'cortina' for payment. These were sold by the organiser; the women got a fixed amount for the evening.

Or so some history goes. But that's just a potted, abbreviated version.

Some culture has moved on; some want to be stuck forever in a retro past when things seemed better, or it's cute from another culture.

 

[brujo]

I'm a leader — and I've survived the years of rejection, ignoring and dismissal most leaders will go through. All this without having ever had a partner, let alone a regular partner. I rarely went to prácticas either. The vast majority of good followers (understandably) ignored me. I started in a relatively small community.

This is a huge turnoff in Tango compared to some other dances. I don’t know what it is about tango, but I started exploring it alongside fusion and west coast swing. The amount of rejection you get in tango as a new lead is just so much more incredibly more than the other dances. No encouragement, no friendliness at the milongas compared to the other dances. It feels like you as a leader are expected to arrive as an expert and any tiny mistake you make will send you to outcast land. I understand that you need to go to practicas but this is sometimes impossible if you don’t live in the big tango cities.

 

[tangoing]

No, that's a myth. At best, we can say it varies locally--some places have a big social scene and no competitors, while others have only competitors and no meaningful social scene. Age trends play a factor, too--in the USA, Ballroom was the colloquial dance style when Boomers were young, and has been almost entirely supplanted in that role by Club Latin today.

But even without that age divide, the two groups just don't cross over very much. If you step into a competition-first studio, you're going to walk away thinking that competition is king. If you step into a social-first studio, you'll think that competitors are some rare and exotic breed. Neither is fully true. The most we can say is that competitors are the ones who spend the most money and therefore partly subsidize the rest of the industry, so it is rare to find a studio that doesn't support any competition training at all. But there are vastly more social Ballroomers out there than competitors. Most of those never take lessons, though, so you won't see them unless you seek out a social dance.


I would argue that this analysis hinges on a few assumptions that should not be held as axiomatic.

All dances evolve over time. Ballroom is no different in that respect. It is true that the competitive Ballroom style has diverged from the original social styles, as a result of the differing goals. You could say that this evolution renders the style "stripped of culture" if you wanted to, and defend that argument without much trouble.

But that objection is no different than in any other dance that has experienced a stylistic evolution. Every culture has traditionalists that frown on change and say that it "ruins the culture." Ballroom merits no special praise or condemnation in this regard. AT, with its diverging social / performance / mundial styles, is in pretty much the same position--the only significant difference is that competitive Ballroom has had a longer continuous history than the Mundial, and thus has had more time to independently develop.

(On a personal note, I would even further argue with such traditionalists. Culture, like dance, evolves. When we preserve the "authentic style" of a dance, we are preserving a mummified version of culture that no longer exists. That's still valuable! But it is not inherently more valuable than allowing a dance form and a social culture to evolve together. By analogy: museums are amazing and important and beautiful, but they are not inherently more important and beautiful than current artists producing new work and challenging our assumptions. They are simply more carefully curated, with the benefit of time and hindsight.)

So I would challenge the implied belief that a dance evolving entails "stripping it of culture." Rather the opposite--styles change in order to better suit the culture in which they exist. Competitive Ballroom, again, does not stand out here one way or the other.

Lastly, about the objection to flashiness. Take a look at any conversation in the Ballroom forum that touches on competitive styling. The prevailing attitude you will see, everywhere, is disdain for pointless flashiness. We even have an idiomatic name for it: flash and trash. No, competitive Ballroom culture, by and large, prizes "purity of movement" just as much as any other culture of dancers. And the judges are frequently the most conservative of the lot in this regard, which puts brakes on the most exuberantly-innovate types.

Ok I guess this depends widely on the location, since I guess I and a few others here have only been widely exposed to the competitive side of ballroom.

As for culture, yes you can argue it evolves. You can also make the same argument with food — how different nyc style pizza is compared to italian style, and how they’re both legitimate dishes in their own right now.
But when we’re talking about it evolving, I like to get to when/where/why it evolved and also the core value of the original dance.
For argentine tango, I think many of us agree that one of the core tenets (if not THE core tenet) of it is the embrace + the connection involved with the it.
Now you look at Ballroom tango, you see their embrace is hip to hip and you wonder how they got to that point, and if you look it up, it was just from a couples trying that in competitions/shows and people thinking that looked cool and it stuck. So if you’re doing a dance for competition/shows, the main goal is to look “flashy”, my definition of flashy may be different than the current ballroom dancers’, but for me it’s to show off / look good, and that’s what I meant by it in my original post. Choreographed stage argentine tango shows are inherently way more flashy than improvised ones for example.
So for ballroom tango, it not only removed the main soul of dance (chest to chest close embrace) but also for just superficial rather than practical reasons

 

[pianistamediano]

She is motivated to improve, but I don’t think it’s enough to just learn by going to milongas. ... She could take private lessons, that’s all I can see.

For followers, it's perfectly possible to become a "good"/enjoyable dancer just by dancing regularly at milongas if they are conscious throughout their tandas (in that they maintain an acute awareness and remember how the dances went), analyse afterwards and figure out things to improve on. It is much less difficult and time-consuming compared to leaders.

I don't recommend this to most people because most people are generally unfocused, think too little, aren't used to constant self-reflection, and have inadequate will to push through all the negative thoughts any form of criticism generates — after all, we are harshest on ourselves. But that's what works for me. (It doesn't remove any enjoyment of the dance for me — I usually just make a note of any stumbles, "mistakes", weird moments for later.

Ideally of course, they'd be asking for constant feedback, but that's only possible with leaders who are in the know and at practicas.

But to be a great follower, well, that takes many, many hours working on individual technique, many privates, many sessions with a suitable partner...

If she wants regular tandas with a great leader, she can always go the social route — enter their social circles. They'll be friend tandas, but so what?

Privates are probably the best option she has right now, assuming financial solvency. That and regular attendance at milongas will get her far.

 

[tangoing]

Nope.

I go out social dancing at least once a week. Admittedly, the social dances are a mix of ballroom and club dance. But people dance Waltz, Tango, Foxtrot, Rhumba etc. socially. I also compete. There are tons of social ballroom dancers around here. Many social dancers around here like a variety of dances, so that's what we get at the social dance.


I'm not concerned about "culture" when I social dance. And honestly, I"m not even sure what "stripped of" or "infused by" culture means. Is West Coast Swing "stripped of culture"? I don't have any desire to pretend I'm living in 18th century Vienna or Victorian England when I dance the waltz.

As for "culture" in Tango, wasn't it originally danced by men with men because so few women were allowed to dance it? And wasn't it originally associated with brothels? I suspect those "cultural" aspects have been stripped.

I mean…you’re somewhat proving my point that you’re not concerned about culture when you go social dancing to these ballroom socials — that it’s stripped of culture.

For argentine tango, anyone I know who gets good at it gets more involved in the culture, whether it’s learning spanish, knowing the roots/style of all the orchestras, all the historical dancers/teachers that shaped the dance, trekking to BA, etc.

Even in lindyhop I’ve had teachers give offhand history lessons of them learning from some of the original founders in harlem. And a lot of the socials in the city always have big live jazz bands who are also invested in the music/culture.

And then for the latin dances like salsa/bachata, so many latin dancers I know grew up dancing them in big family gatherings that it’s inherently part of their upbringing.

So when I say culture I mean the history infused with the dance so there’s a certain soul to it.