What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[tangoing]

@lucia_l

It is certainly true that social AT, in general, values historicity. The competitive form less so, because it is a performance art and arts are always pushing boundaries.

It’s actually the opposite for AT, competition is not pushing boundaries since it’s the same style and dancers try to mimic closest the style that won last years and so forth, and why so many AT social dancers frown upon competition since it restricts trying out new things.

I think the thing that has been disquieting me is that folks are talking about ballroom as being a soulless, sanitized outlier because of this. But the truth seems to me that AT is the strange one in this regard, not Ballroom. Club Latin is certainly unconcerned about historicity, nor is WCS or the other social dance forms I encounter. Yet they are given credit for "having culture," and Ballroom is not.

It all just seems very prejudicial, and I can't figure out what the cause is.

Could just be due to the handful of interactions I’ve had with ballroom, either it’s classes or it’s dancers it’s been extremely focused on competition.
After looking things up, there are ballroom socials in my city but it seems to be widely overshadowed by the competitive side. And it’s probably the same for a few other posters here as well.

It’s similar to why other dancers portray tango as snobby, and I admit a lot of it is.
There’s a hint of truth to the stereotype of every dance.

Oh and to non dancers AT is often lumped in with ballroom so that gets annoying too

 

[lucia_l]

So maybe I can say that ballroom’s evolved culture is about competition rather than saying it has no culture.

This would be incorrect. Social ballroom exists and it's culture is not competitive. I'm sure someone could trace social ballroom culture to surroundings and past history. It would be an interesting academic exercise. But it's trivially easy to see that social ballroom is social without figuring out how that culture evolved.

If you went to social ballroom gatherings you'd see the are social and not competitive.

My comment about spanish is related to learning a different language which is also learning a different culture, not that english inherently has no culture.

Does everyone who takes AT learn Spanish? I spoke it when I was little, but I mostly forgot mine after my family moved back from El Salvador when I was 7. (In my family, I'm the only one of four kids and my parents who doesn't speak it. I can understand some. My main problem is conjugation. Mom insisted that I was only faking not speaking Spanish, so I studied French in high school. )

It's interesting if AT dancers all want to learn Spanish. But that doesn't make it particularly social rather than competitive. Learning foreign languages doesn't make something social per se.

 

[tangoing]

This would be incorrect. Social ballroom exists and it's culture is not competitive. I'm sure someone could trace social ballroom culture to surroundings and past history. It would be an interesting academic exercise. But it's trivially easy to see that social ballroom is social without figuring out how that culture evolved.

If you went to social ballroom gatherings you'd see the are social and not competitive.

Yes but like I said in the other post, if one’s experience of ballroom is more heavily on the competition side then they’re going to paint a picture that’s what ballroom is (and judging on previous posts i’m not alone in this experience).

Does everyone who takes AT learn Spanish? I spoke it when I was little, but I mostly forgot mine after my family moved back from El Salvador when I was 7. (In my family, I'm the only one of four kids and my parents who doesn't speak it. I can understand some. My main problem is conjugation. Mom insisted that I was only faking not speaking Spanish, so I studied French in high school. )

It's interesting if AT dancers all want to learn Spanish. But that doesn't make it particularly social rather than competitive. Learning foreign languages doesn't make something social per se.

No, but it’s one of many ways one can immerse themselves into the AT culture like I said, there’s other ways such as visiting BA, or understanding the history of famous dancers/orchestras.
It’s like with lindyhop i know quite a few dancers are also into the adjacent jazz scene and have tried to learn some instruments themselves.
So when I talk about culture that way, I’m saying there’s a lot more to it than the dance that people wish to explore so they get a better understanding of the dance itself.

 

[brujo]

I'd say an issue is not realising that every milonga is different. Some are stuck-up and snooty, harking back to a retro, foreign, culture; others are friendly and contemporary, adapted to the host culture.

It doesn’t help in recruitment and retention when the default codigo and behaviors in the most public events are also the least friendly. For example, seeing a tango live band, watching a movie about tango, having a tango milonga that meets before my salsa event are all ideal spots where more people could be introduced to the dance and try it out. But what I see more is people popping in and leaving after half an hour because they were not asked to dance. The gap between beginner class and what actually happens at a milonga is also huge and intimidating.

Would be nice if there was a more gradual progression at the events. I went to a live music event and the band did two song tandas, tango only, after the beginner class for a bit since more than half of the room had never done tango. It was nice because some of the more advanced dancers helped people try it.

 

[tangoing]

It doesn’t help in recruitment and retention when the default codigo and behaviors in the most public events are also the least friendly. For example, seeing a tango live band, watching a movie about tango, having a tango milonga that meets before my salsa event are all ideal spots where more people could be introduced to the dance and try it out. But what I see more is people popping in and leaving after half an hour because they were not asked to dance. The gap between beginner class and what actually happens at a milonga is also huge and intimidating.

Would be nice if there was a more gradual progression at the events. I went to a live music event and the band did two song tandas, tango only, after the beginner class for a bit since more than half of the room had never done tango. It was nice because some of the more advanced dancers helped people try it.

You just have to know the correct places to go (assuming there’s multiple places in your city). It’s like in nyc last year some guy took a first time tango dancer to one of the most advanced/snobby places in the city and she had an awful time, and she wrote a blog post about it and it became viral in the tango scene.

 

[itwillhappen]

It’s not that I’m offering to be her private teacher. Occasionally I could meet her there, but I’d also be busy dancing with others. I brought her up in this thread because of recruitment issues, as an example of someone who could really use professional instruction in classes. (She also has the budget for it.) But because she doesn’t have a partner, can’t take such. She is motivated to improve, but I don’t think it’s enough to just learn by going to milongas. Also, it’s not even every week we have a 2- hour practica. She could take private lessons, that’s all I can see. Others in her situation might not have that option financially.

"Recruiting and retaining" is an active and conscious process by which someone attempts to fill positions with suitable applicants. Only with regard to this goal are the applicant's interests relevant.
As a student, you can reverse this by investing money and hiring teachers (and/or partners) for private lessons.

 

[opendoor]

Now... not before?!

Maybe you didn't read my last comment to fiesta: I explained the semantics of the term there, and I think he found it understandable: there's "ballroom" in the broad sense and in the narrow sense. As a native speaker, you use such words more intuitively. I, as a foreign speaker, am more analytical. So, please excuse me for the confusion I caused, lucia !!

And to the point: your grandparents, like my grandparents, naturally danced ballroom socially. But that's the broad definition. In the European countries I know, however, there are no ballroom socials that take place outside of affiliated dance schools or are organized by non-accredited dance teachers. That's what I mean by "ballroom" in the narrow sense. The only exception I know of are the balls in Vienna. They aren't hosted by the ballroom industry because they've become a separate business.

 

[opendoor]

..Does everyone who takes AT learn Spanish?

In fact, over half of the beginners in my class back then were learning Spanish. I had to justify myself by saying that I had a bandoneòn and was practicing it.

 

[opendoor]

Restricted to dance schools, that makes sense... But AT in the wild has never had standards and there's no qualification for AT teacher..

However, the porteños would like to change that

 

[Brummbaer]

Does everyone who takes AT learn Spanish?

No, but you learn a surprising amount from the Argentine Spanish names for moves.

Visiting BsAs isn't on my bucket list; maybe South America in general. But Spain is certainly likely (along with other European countries like Italy and Greece), so having some other language capability is useful, so some more language classes to add to those existing along life's journey.

 

[Brummbaer]

It doesn’t help in recruitment and retention when the default codigo and behaviors in the most public events are also the least friendly.

Yes, some milongas should come with a health warning. One needs to choose wisely. 'Schools' and teachers should advertise better.

 

[Brummbaer]

Would be nice if there was a more gradual progression at the events.

There can be, but it's poorly organised. With poor recruitment you have fewer people, so it's difficult to organise an appropriate milonga. It used to happen.

 

[Bailango]

so it was never an intimidating thing,

You are an exception. Irrespective of whether you went social dancing after a first class or after the first year, most men in my experience feel intimidated.

From my small sample those that don’t feel intimidated, turn out to be the ones that are best avoided. There is also a correlation between them and those who don’t improve.

 

[Bailango]

It doesn't take long for attractive young women to "move up" the ladder. Leaders, not so much (men, I should specify). I think it also depends on your goals and commitment.

Not sure how the last part is related to the first.

It goes back to - it is easy for an experienced leader to dance with a beginner follower and make it fun/enjoyable/satisfying/whatever you want to call it. We already have thousand posts of when you add the PYT factor.

if you remove age as an factor, a woman follower of any age will move up the ladder if they show up for social dancing and make it easier to be asked. I am not sure how many women realize that men can still find asking intimidating after years of dancing.

 

[TTanguero]

You are an exception.

I was for sure fortunate in a number of ways.

From my small sample those that don’t feel intimidated, turn out to be the ones that are best avoided.

That's a rather different phenomenon – not men who were unintimidated when they first started dancing, but rather those who are oblivious to the quality of their own dance.