What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

"Invent" is a stretch since it is based on a style that was called by some "the style of the 1950s,"..."the style of the geogr

aphical centre of Buenos Aires
You could also look at Petróleo (Carlos Alberto Estévez) for much of how we dance today.


the style of the 1950s
Reminded me of the Salida del 40, and the ever relevant topic of floorcraft. Off-topic, but useful when someone in front (a blocker!) insists on a prolonged conversation between songs in a tanda.
 
.....Cacho Dante.. invented the milonguero style together with Susana..

..."Invent" is a stretch since it is based on a style that was called by some "the style of the 1950s...
It's interesting that you read Denniston just as selectively as I do, just with different intentions. You revere the tango culture in BsAs, and I always try to expose it and debunk its duplicity.

Its also interesting that I quoted exactly this chapter of Denniston's book two week ago when I explained the differences between milonguero and club style. Now to the point, the source you cite says exactly what I wrote: It was a new generation of newly interested dancers that took up tango but not the crowd that already danced in the GA. And Denniston also writes that the new style (milonguero) had to assert itself against the establishment of the prevailing stage tango (i.e. Todaro, Bravo, Dinzel), which also was danced socially. So it's worth reading carefully and comparing different sources.

...the first people to start dancing again in Buenos Aires would probably never have danced with someone who had danced in the Golden Age..
...Susanna Miller, coined for it the term.. milonguero style.. While the choice of the term was obviously inspired by the desire to distinguish this style from the steps dominated style danced on stage, the unfortunate.. consequence was that it set up the idea in people's minds that this was the only authentic social Tango style..
...But by 1995 the style variously known as “close hold”, “short steps”, “Tango club” or “milonguero” had come to dominate the dancing of the people in Buenos Aires who were part of the Tango Renaissance...
Also interesting that Denniston spells Susana wrong
 
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That's always an aspiration, but it depends when they start. Given AT, nowadays, has a one much later starting age, then it can be problematic. Work with the material you have.
Bad posture can cause other problems in life. Never too late to fix a posture. People at late age do so when doing yoga or tai chi. So why not with Tango. Not only will it help with dancing but also with general life.

Most people until well past 80 or 85 can hold a good posture. Some age early. And age can affect the posture. That allowance can be made.

Most AT posture related issues in dancing are not age related. They are habit related or no one stopping the bad habit from forming. I see as many young people with incorrect posture when dancing as I see the old people. With age people tend to slouch. But it doesn’t have to be with awareness and correcting it. After some advance age it is physiology and may be then you try best with the posture you have.
 
Bad posture can cause other problems in life. Never too late to fix a posture. People at late age do so when doing yoga or tai chi. So why not with Tango. Not only will it help with dancing but also with general life.
Excellent point that's often lost in talk of musicality, vocabulary, and good dance technique that's no good for the body (of which there is a lot . . . ask a ballerina).

When I started tango in 2013, I'd been working at a desk job and doing little more active than walking (to be fair, a lot of walking) for 18 years. I suffered from tension headaches due to FHP and costochondritis caused or aggravated by a "closed" chest posture. Yet by 2015, one of my private teachers said he could tell a tanguero was approaching from several blocks away, before he could recognize my face, due to my good posture. It took just two years of tango to sort out 18 years of painful habits.

Unrelated, I was prehypertensive when I started. Now I'm not. Just the exercise of dancing and working on dance for 15-20 hours/week – and probably the associated relaxation, although I cannot prove it – took care of that.

This is my top argument for tango dancers to focus on athleticism – on matters like balance, endurance, flexibility, posture, precision, speed, and strength. I was fortunate to start with speed and strength, but I gained in all of those other areas . . . and had fun doing it! Unfortunately, some dancers seem to focus on pure-dance work like steps, musical phrasing, and toe-pointing, and then wonder why they're not really advancing as dancers. They're putting the cart before the horse.
Most people until well past 80 or 85 can hold a good posture.
I dance with women in their 80s who have better posture than the majority of women in their 20s and 30s. Of course, part of that is that 80-somethings probably didn't spend as much of their life hunched over a desk or a computer, while the young women walk around with their head perpetually bent into a phone . . . Also, love it or hate it, the 80-somethings date to the "charm school" era, and did active work on posture, like walking with books balanced on their head. I think that's now seen as passé.
Most AT posture related issues in dancing are not age related.
They are largely related to people deciding to dance steps without the balance, flexibility, and precision that are prerequisites for them, so they force themselves into contorted postures to kind-of, sort-of fake it without falling over or taking a misstep. It's also related to trying to jump on musical phrasing despite the lack of necessary speed and precision, leading to more contortion. I see it all the time.

One guy asked me not long ago how on earth I did something or other, and I explained the technique, to which he replied, "Well, it must be nice to have a body like yours. Mine would fall over." Which struck me as hilarous, as I'm working with a small paunch, a busted-up ankle, an abdomen that has been opened up and stitched back together twice (leaving me with severe scar tissue), and 45 years of inactivity prior to tango. It just takes a couple of years of not taking shortcuts but instead working on posture and its friends to work around such things.
 
This is my top argument for tango dancers to focus on athleticism – on matters like balance, endurance, flexibility, posture, precision, speed, and strength.

Within and without tango! A strong body breeds a strong mind. Plenty of proof out there that keeping active is nothing but beneficial for aging well, and the stronger one's body is, the better the quality of life in later years.

I think quite a few dancers would benefit a lot more from an exercise session in lieu of a group class every week. A lot of the things an average dancer struggles with can be chalked up to inadequate conditioning. You could just dance a lot and force your body to adapt, but that will take years — instead of a few months in the gym.
 
Also, love it or hate it, the 80-somethings date to the "charm school" era, and did active work on posture, like walking with books balanced on their head. I think that's now seen as passé.

Amusingly enough, one of my teachers recommended that exercise for developing a good posture! Walking while trying to balance a book on one's head is good fun.

They are largely related to people deciding to dance steps without the balance, flexibility, and precision that are prerequisites for them, so they force themselves into contorted postures to kind-of, sort-of fake it without falling over or taking a misstep.

Yup. It's just not fun trying to bask in the atmosphere of the milonga and seeing everywhere severe anterior pelvic tilt (my pet peeve), heads so far forwards that they're practically above the metatarsals, rounded shoulders, stumbling on thin air because of stability issues... Makes me cringe and wince and think about all the problems they have/will have later in life.
 
Oh posture…! Two of my top 5 absolute favorite partners have horrible ugly hunchback posture. Now, one insists that we switch back and forth between leading and following, but I find his bad posture makes it very difficult for him to follow. When he leads, it doesn’t hurt the dance too much, somehow. It just doesn’t look good. But it looks much much worse when he follows. At least, what my maestro has been drilling with me for years and years, working on my posture for the purpose of being better able to react to subtle impulses from the leader.

I’m omw right now to spend a couple of days with him and his wife (they are hosting a private milonga) and he wants to practice. I wish I knew how I delicately could address it, but I guess I better not.
 
Within and without tango! A strong body breeds a strong mind. Plenty of proof out there that keeping active is nothing but beneficial for aging well, and the stronger one's body is, the better the quality of life in later years.
Yes! My mother is almost 80. She has hereditary health issues that lifestyle can manage but couldn't have prevented, among them spinal arthritis and A-fib. Despite this, she takes dance classes, balance classes (which I didn't know were a thing!), attends a gym, swims, and walks as her main mode of transportation. She has always been active at about this level, and I'm convinced that's why neither age nor some fairly serious health conditions have slowed her down.
I think quite a few dancers would benefit a lot more from an exercise session in lieu of a group class every week [....] in the gym.
To be fair, the gym isn't for everyone. In many places, it comes with a disagreeable culture and/or really bad trainers you're obligated to entertain as part of your package. Also, not everybody has a gym that's within a sensible distance of their home and/or that's remotely affordable. (I have two nearby, but I live in a highly gentrified area where the monthly rate approaches rent . . .)

However, there are countless options outside of the gym. At one point before I danced, I controlled my blood pressure and heart rate by buying an elliptical trainer and using it faithfully every day. I also bought barbells and mat, and did basic lifting and stretching at home. Despite being a not-well-off writer, this hardly broke my budget.

I'm sure that simply walking instead of taking a car would help many people. One of my friends who used to be, dare I say it, rather hot just ballooned and slipped into terrible health because she bought a car and within a couple of months was taking it to travel distances that would be <20-minute walks. I mean, I took two 40-minute walks (each of the two walks being 20 minutes out, 20 minutes in) just today because I had a thing to do, forgot another thing, and went and did the other thing. I consider that "very light exercise" that I wouldn't have mentioned had I not been reading this discussion. If walking 4 × 20 minutes would wear a person out, I think they have more pressing issues to deal with than learning tango.
t's just not fun trying to bask in the atmosphere of the milonga and seeing everywhere severe anterior pelvic tilt (my pet peeve), heads so far forwards that they're practically above the metatarsals, rounded shoulders, stumbling on thin air because of stability issues... Makes me cringe and wince and think about all the problems they have/will have later in life.
My two pet peeves:

(1) "Shower head" leaders who crane their head, neck, and sometimes upper back forward over their followers, their chin practically on a shorter follower's head.

(2) People who seem to think the famous "tango lean" is created by sticking out the chest in front and the rear end in back, and who then attempt to dissociate in that scary posture. My coach says that torsion around an exaggeratedly nonupright spinal column is the main action that puts people in her Pilates studio for spinal rehabilitation, and that she knows of cases of paralysis due to it. I am actively afraid for people who do that!
I find his bad posture makes it very difficult for him to follow.
I'll only say that followers who do either of the above things – stick their head forward of their torso or affect an exaggerated "chest out, arse out" spinal posture – are incredibly hard to dance with. Their body invades my space, creates separation at more useful points of contact, and generally reduces the signal-to-noise ratio. I vastly prefer a straight back line from back of head down to the heels, with any lean due to canting the entire line slightly forward toward me (which high heels actually help with . . .).
 
Within and without tango! A strong body breeds a strong mind. Plenty of proof out there that keeping active is nothing but beneficial for aging well, and the stronger one's body is, the better the quality of life in later years.

I think quite a few dancers would benefit a lot more from an exercise session in lieu of a group class every week. A lot of the things an average dancer struggles with can be chalked up to inadequate conditioning. You could just dance a lot and force your body to adapt, but that will take years — instead of a few months in the gym.
Gym is a modern phenomenon. Previously people didn’t used to live such sedentary lifestyle. Personally to me going to gym is like wasting the time which could be better used elsewhere.

I prefer active outdoors lifestyle which included playing sports. Which can be demanding physically.
 
Gym is a modern phenomenon. Previously people didn’t used to live such sedentary lifestyle. Personally to me going to gym is like wasting the time which could be better used elsewhere.

I prefer active outdoors lifestyle which included playing sports. Which can be demanding physically.

To each their own! I was in the military, so we did everything a civilian might have done and more, whether inside a gym or bashing through a jungle.
 
Oh posture…! Two of my top 5 absolute favorite partners have horrible ugly hunchback posture. Now, one insists that we switch back and forth between leading and following, but I find his bad posture makes it very difficult for him to follow. When he leads, it doesn’t hurt the dance too much, somehow. It just doesn’t look good. But it looks much much worse when he follows. At least, what my maestro has been drilling with me for years and years, working on my posture for the purpose of being better able to react to subtle impulses from the leader.

I’m omw right now to spend a couple of days with him and his wife (they are hosting a private milonga) and he wants to practice. I wish I knew how I delicately could address it, but I guess I better not.
I ask. Instead of saying, "You're hunchbacked and that stops you from being a good follower, and looks bad, too, so fix it," (which is what I want to say) I ask, "Is it possible that, if you straightened your posture a little, it might help you to follow? Maybe you'd receive much more information and be able to respond better to a lead? Shall we try?"

Depends on how well I know the partner. Reactions can be mixed.

back to lurking
 

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