opendoor
Forum Master
I agree. But what counts for you and me must not count for shy or handicapped people, as well.
What justifies the high spending cost for learning to dance to you?
- Thread starter VronskyWasSoVain
- Start date
VronskyWasSoVain
Active Member
I work in the consulting industry so I know all about sales and marketing tactics to get clients to spend more money. And that includes hiring pretty women to work in client-facing roles to upgrade the status of the company and image.
But being shy and having had no background in dancing, it is necessary for me to be taken step by step by a dance school into dancing. It's been six months but I can already foresee a future where I won't need the dance school as I learn the fundamentals and the basics.
It's kinda like telling a guy who grew up in Africa to all of a sudden go out and play hockey. It's not gonna happen unless he receives some very specific hand-holding instructions and that don't come cheap.
But being shy and having had no background in dancing, it is necessary for me to be taken step by step by a dance school into dancing. It's been six months but I can already foresee a future where I won't need the dance school as I learn the fundamentals and the basics.
It's kinda like telling a guy who grew up in Africa to all of a sudden go out and play hockey. It's not gonna happen unless he receives some very specific hand-holding instructions and that don't come cheap.
And there is the critical thing:
from the social dancer's position - snapdancer and me - the chances are high, that you are not sold the product you need but instead told, you have to buy this super expensive product and do strange things with it.
A consultant should work for the interest of the client. A good consultant explores the needs of the client, his financial capacities and tailors a fitting solution. The school on the other hand is simply trying to sell. A good school would try to sell you a quality product - they would consult you correctly - while a bad one simply would sell you as much as they can.
(If you want to play hockey in the winter 3 times a year, you don't need the 5-grand carbon stick, you need a durable one that makes it through some summers.)
....
As you by the other thread you opened seem to be more interested in the social dance element. (If I got you wrong, this still is true for people in that position, which are not rare.) Your school simply did not sell you the product you need. By now they should take your hand and bring you to the social dancing - or you should go out there and look for it yourself.
This taking your hands can take forms like helping you to find people to dance with - yes, many trainers help people connecting with each other. In the Latin dance scene it's an every day occurrence, that teachers show up with their classes at the venues and make them dance with each other and others.
When I restarted dancing at the age of 30 I was pathologically shy. Without the help of my later dance partner - who I met through a friend - I would have stopped after beginners class simply because I was lost out there.
The best technical training would not have helped me the smallest bit, to jump over this wall. Out there usually I am one of the better dancers, technically even above many of the wannabe show dancers. But it does not help me, when the shyness creeps in again. What helps is knowing people to dance with and having routines to get to a dance partner, to break the creeping in of insecurity.
But the techniques that make the women really want to dance with me, that makes the dance really feel good etc, aren't how many spins I can lead or do myself, how precise I can move my feet and what crazy moves I can lead. They are about how creative (not reproductive) I dance, how personal I can make the dance, how good I can adjust it to my partner ('s lack of technical standardization) and simply how gentle I can embrace her and simply make her feel good. Those abilities are useless in competition and show dancing, so they are usually not mentioned. And they are much harder to teach as they are very personal.
If your current teacher is not taking means to bring you to social dancing till now - half a year is more than enough time to teach you the basics - but you want to do social dancing, change the school.
If he was trying softly but you rejected out of insecurity, talk to him about it again. If he is worth his money he will know some women in the appropriate skill and age group to partner you with or a group of dancers from the school you can join.
Dancing is about more than doing steps correctly. Much more ...
from the social dancer's position - snapdancer and me - the chances are high, that you are not sold the product you need but instead told, you have to buy this super expensive product and do strange things with it.
A consultant should work for the interest of the client. A good consultant explores the needs of the client, his financial capacities and tailors a fitting solution. The school on the other hand is simply trying to sell. A good school would try to sell you a quality product - they would consult you correctly - while a bad one simply would sell you as much as they can.
(If you want to play hockey in the winter 3 times a year, you don't need the 5-grand carbon stick, you need a durable one that makes it through some summers.)
....
As you by the other thread you opened seem to be more interested in the social dance element. (If I got you wrong, this still is true for people in that position, which are not rare.) Your school simply did not sell you the product you need. By now they should take your hand and bring you to the social dancing - or you should go out there and look for it yourself.
This taking your hands can take forms like helping you to find people to dance with - yes, many trainers help people connecting with each other. In the Latin dance scene it's an every day occurrence, that teachers show up with their classes at the venues and make them dance with each other and others.
When I restarted dancing at the age of 30 I was pathologically shy. Without the help of my later dance partner - who I met through a friend - I would have stopped after beginners class simply because I was lost out there.
The best technical training would not have helped me the smallest bit, to jump over this wall. Out there usually I am one of the better dancers, technically even above many of the wannabe show dancers. But it does not help me, when the shyness creeps in again. What helps is knowing people to dance with and having routines to get to a dance partner, to break the creeping in of insecurity.
But the techniques that make the women really want to dance with me, that makes the dance really feel good etc, aren't how many spins I can lead or do myself, how precise I can move my feet and what crazy moves I can lead. They are about how creative (not reproductive) I dance, how personal I can make the dance, how good I can adjust it to my partner ('s lack of technical standardization) and simply how gentle I can embrace her and simply make her feel good. Those abilities are useless in competition and show dancing, so they are usually not mentioned. And they are much harder to teach as they are very personal.
If your current teacher is not taking means to bring you to social dancing till now - half a year is more than enough time to teach you the basics - but you want to do social dancing, change the school.
If he was trying softly but you rejected out of insecurity, talk to him about it again. If he is worth his money he will know some women in the appropriate skill and age group to partner you with or a group of dancers from the school you can join.
Dancing is about more than doing steps correctly. Much more ...
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I find myself periodically making more or less the same post I'm about to make here. Don't think I've done it for a while in any case.
The fact that you seem to have be inhabiting a dance space where dancers who compete aren't taught to lead and follow well doesn't mean that that is the norm, nor what is viewed as best-practices by people who teach competitive ballroom dancers.
I compete and, at the moment, that is the primary focus of my dancing. Guess what we work on the most? My connection and following. Not because I'm a bad follower--I'm pretty good (most of the time
), but because it is such a critical component of dancing well and is, shockingly, required for competing well. 
Are there teachers who teach competitive dancers who fail to convince their students of the importance of lead and follow? Of course there are. Are there less than stellar teachers? Of course there are. Are there students who fight tooth and nail against that hard work and want to memorize steps? Of course there are. That doesn't change how critical a good connection and good leading and following is to competing well. Even if I'm positive about what's coming next, the quality suffers incredibly if I don't follow and try to do it on my own. This is common knowledge.
Mr 4 styles
Forum Master
There must be a serious regional variance. Where I have lived in Arizona and San Diego the vast majority of competitive dancers are good to excellent social dancers . I think all three expressions ... competitive,social,and showdance are additive and not exclusive of one another .
Have I seen a competitive dancer do a huge arm New Yorker (crossover ) on a crowded social floor. Sure. But usually they are teacher trainees not competitive students!
Have I seen social dancers brag about how many ladies they can lead who take heel leads on 3 in waltz coz they haven’t trained their body to execute the technique well? Sure but they are usually group class only types who haven’t
invested in their dancing .
So... the justification for the high cost of dancing is to become as capable in each of these three arenas as you see fit. Take group. Take privates. Go to workshops and dance camps. Get coaching Do it all. I personally choose to be a rockstar in all three... hence my huge cash outlay. Coz bottom line I love to dance and want to put my best foot forward every time. Be it a heel or a toe.
Have I seen a competitive dancer do a huge arm New Yorker (crossover ) on a crowded social floor. Sure. But usually they are teacher trainees not competitive students!
Have I seen social dancers brag about how many ladies they can lead who take heel leads on 3 in waltz coz they haven’t trained their body to execute the technique well? Sure but they are usually group class only types who haven’t
invested in their dancing .
So... the justification for the high cost of dancing is to become as capable in each of these three arenas as you see fit. Take group. Take privates. Go to workshops and dance camps. Get coaching Do it all. I personally choose to be a rockstar in all three... hence my huge cash outlay. Coz bottom line I love to dance and want to put my best foot forward every time. Be it a heel or a toe.
My post is going to be a little all over the place, a few random remarks to give a nod to and re-iterate wise things already stated before answering the actual question:
1. Track your expenses (preferably all of them, but also dance). Set a budget and stick to it. Anyone who tries to get you outside the budget, either consider personally whether you want it enough to spend more, or stand firm.
2. No need to "wait until you are good" to go to social dances. Just go. You're not going to get any better or become part of the community as long as you're not going.
3. We are all potential cash cows, it's not just you or your demographic.
4. Go for it and enjoy it, but do exercise some restraint - the initial excitement and passion can come crashing down hard if you throw yourself too much into it all upfront.
So the thread question: I love and enjoy ballroom dance, and make a good enough living right now, to consciously decide to afford the price it commands. I have been very fortunate to have had a series of excellent instructors and many opportunities for both great times and creative expression. I also appreciate that I am paying for individualized attention from professionals who have invested a lot of time and energy into their own skill set, one that an extremely small slice of the population truly possesses. Unexpectedly for me, this has also been an arena where I have expanded my horizons and pushed out of my comfort zone (I know that sounds corny and cliche, but I walked into the studio with a very specific, focused, narrow vision and I've been stubborn along the way).
I know the conflicted feelings you are having - many, if not most of us go through this when it finally sinks in how much this fun hobby is going to cost us. As others have stated, at some point you have to figure out exactly what you want and who can provide it. If your current studio is not offering what you want, either have a frank chat about it, and/or look around to other studios to see what's available.
1. Track your expenses (preferably all of them, but also dance). Set a budget and stick to it. Anyone who tries to get you outside the budget, either consider personally whether you want it enough to spend more, or stand firm.
2. No need to "wait until you are good" to go to social dances. Just go. You're not going to get any better or become part of the community as long as you're not going.
3. We are all potential cash cows, it's not just you or your demographic.
4. Go for it and enjoy it, but do exercise some restraint - the initial excitement and passion can come crashing down hard if you throw yourself too much into it all upfront.
So the thread question: I love and enjoy ballroom dance, and make a good enough living right now, to consciously decide to afford the price it commands. I have been very fortunate to have had a series of excellent instructors and many opportunities for both great times and creative expression. I also appreciate that I am paying for individualized attention from professionals who have invested a lot of time and energy into their own skill set, one that an extremely small slice of the population truly possesses. Unexpectedly for me, this has also been an arena where I have expanded my horizons and pushed out of my comfort zone (I know that sounds corny and cliche, but I walked into the studio with a very specific, focused, narrow vision and I've been stubborn along the way).
I know the conflicted feelings you are having - many, if not most of us go through this when it finally sinks in how much this fun hobby is going to cost us. As others have stated, at some point you have to figure out exactly what you want and who can provide it. If your current studio is not offering what you want, either have a frank chat about it, and/or look around to other studios to see what's available.
Loki
Forum Master
Dancing indeed can be expensive and it is an ongoing cost. However, consider the costs of other hobbies like golf ($85-$100 a round at some courses near me plus clubs, balls, beer after a round), boating (the dock fees alone could buy a boatload of group classes), etc., etc.
Even hobbies that have relatively low ongoing costs often have high start-up or upgrade costs. Consider woodworking. There are people who have $50K or more invested in power and hand tools.
Cheapest hobby I can think of off the top of my head is running. Buy an outfit and a pair of shoes and you're done. Until you consider the cost of knee/joint replacements.
You really have to do a cost-benefit analysis for yourself and yourself only. Would I pay $20,000+ a year to dance pro-am or limit myself to $10 socials once a month? No. But that doesn't mean either is a "bad thing" or "incorrect".
of group classes), etc., etc.Even hobbies that have relatively low ongoing costs often have high start-up or upgrade costs. Consider woodworking. There are people who have $50K or more invested in power and hand tools.
Cheapest hobby I can think of off the top of my head is running. Buy an outfit and a pair of shoes and you're done. Until you consider the cost of knee/joint replacements.
You really have to do a cost-benefit analysis for yourself and yourself only. Would I pay $20,000+ a year to dance pro-am or limit myself to $10 socials once a month? No. But that doesn't mean either is a "bad thing" or "incorrect".
FancyFeet
Forum Master
As I'm single, the only person I have to justify things to is me. I regularly weigh my goals against the time and level of effort it will take to achieve them, and I decide that it's worth it. If you're with a partner or have a family, your circle needs to be a little wider, but the random passers-by in your life are not owed an explanation.
On the financial side, I have a dance budget - not just an amount per month or year, but a detailed list of what I need and want, and how much that will cost. Lessons, coaching, shoes, practice clothes, hair and makeup, competition, travel, practice and gym fees, etc... it's all there. Then I shuffle things around to fit under the annual cap - which was determined based on what I can afford to spend. Some things are not worth it to me and are not funded - like showcases - but some matter to me and are. Everyone's dance budget is different, but if you're dancing at all seriously, you should have one.
My only firm guiding rule for my dance budget: Dancing must be cash funded - no going into debt to do it - and I must not shortchange my firm costs (like paying my mortgage). I can borrow money from another discretionary category (cable, entertainment, etc. - and I've used these to increase my dance budget in the past), or make more money to fund it (selling an old dress, competition 'winnings', odd jobs, etc.), but maxing out my credit card is not an option. Making this rule way back at the beginning helped me keep my head through that 'falling in love' phase where so many are tempted to overspend.
On the financial side, I have a dance budget - not just an amount per month or year, but a detailed list of what I need and want, and how much that will cost. Lessons, coaching, shoes, practice clothes, hair and makeup, competition, travel, practice and gym fees, etc... it's all there. Then I shuffle things around to fit under the annual cap - which was determined based on what I can afford to spend. Some things are not worth it to me and are not funded - like showcases - but some matter to me and are. Everyone's dance budget is different, but if you're dancing at all seriously, you should have one.
My only firm guiding rule for my dance budget: Dancing must be cash funded - no going into debt to do it - and I must not shortchange my firm costs (like paying my mortgage). I can borrow money from another discretionary category (cable, entertainment, etc. - and I've used these to increase my dance budget in the past), or make more money to fund it (selling an old dress, competition 'winnings', odd jobs, etc.), but maxing out my credit card is not an option. Making this rule way back at the beginning helped me keep my head through that 'falling in love' phase where so many are tempted to overspend.
I agree. In order to continue dancing I had to come up with a firm budget. I pay all my bills including credit cards and put the max away for retirement. The dance budget comes out of discretionary funds and if I need more than I work more. Dance can be full of temptations....' I want a new costume', 'There's a great coach coming into town', 'That comp sounds like so much fun'.... But I accept that I can't do it all. I've also become a better consumer...if the dance product, whatever it might be, doesn't live up to the hype, I simply can't afford to do it.
I enjoy it, and it's cheaper than other hobbies. Heck, even modeling and wargames can get more expensive, and both are cheaper than shooting or skiing(well, maybe if I stuck to 9mm rather than 10mm). I do plan it as part of my budget. That it's one of the best things I've done for my marriage helps justify the expense.
Just be aware that for now, your current teachers/school are/is the source of all your dance knowledge, but there's a whole world of (your selected) dance to explore beyond them.
When my friend started learning Argentine Tango he tried a few different teachers and then settled on the one he thought best suited his perceived 'style'. The classes were fun, the other dancers and students friendly; he enjoyed himself and began learning complex moves and sequences. This teacher also held a milonga (the generic name for a tango club/event) immediately after the class at the same venue.
For several months my friend had no clue there were even other milongas in the area. I also pointed out that it didn't sound right when the teacher sometimes said to the leaders "Don't try this outside our group because other dancers won't be able to follow it."
You should also consider the time, effort and money you're putting into learning to dance (particularly partnered dances) as an investment for your social life in the future...perhaps when you're no longer working. Argentine Tango for me is my insurance against sitting around reading, watching TV etc. all day when I'm retired!
When my friend started learning Argentine Tango he tried a few different teachers and then settled on the one he thought best suited his perceived 'style'. The classes were fun, the other dancers and students friendly; he enjoyed himself and began learning complex moves and sequences. This teacher also held a milonga (the generic name for a tango club/event) immediately after the class at the same venue.
For several months my friend had no clue there were even other milongas in the area. I also pointed out that it didn't sound right when the teacher sometimes said to the leaders "Don't try this outside our group because other dancers won't be able to follow it."
You should also consider the time, effort and money you're putting into learning to dance (particularly partnered dances) as an investment for your social life in the future...perhaps when you're no longer working. Argentine Tango for me is my insurance against sitting around reading, watching TV etc. all day when I'm retired!
Betty The Boogie Buddy
New Member
If you are having fun, and your wallet is not hurting, then you can already justify the cost of learning to dance. Just remember that deep down, dancing is about having fun. If you need to go to dance school and you can afford it, then go for it!
Arun Garg
Well-Known Member
The sheer joy, pleasure, and liberation that dance brings to my life and self image makes all the money worth it. I am a former musician by trade, and as I transitioned into a new career, I needed artistic and musical fulfillment in my life, and dance did it for me. It keeps me sane, and is probably cheaper that constant therapy sessions, LOL!
Lai Lai
Member
Once upon a time dancing added lots of joy to my life - it was like buying happiness! Now I seem to have reached the phase where I'm becoming insane and should seek therapist because of dance. Any suggestions on how to find a good one?