Why some women are not asked to dance
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itwillhappen
Forum Master
Yes, but I think the predominance is not a "male" mental construct.
It's just a mental construct, a cultural imprint, and is has an effect on our generation, whether we like it or not.
Like "woman dance better than man" or "men lead and woman follow".
A long read, but however:
Why men dance with men on Planet O
Tango for psychological wellbeing. The blog explores dance as a primal part of our humanity, as seen by children dancing naturally. Have we forgotten?
tango-therapist.blogspot.com
A long read, but however:
Why men dance with men on Planet O
Tango for psychological wellbeing. The blog explores dance as a primal part of our humanity, as seen by children dancing naturally. Have we forgotten?
Well, that was certainly esoteric and confusing. I think a man wrote it though
opendoor
Forum Master
Our own perception of coursed is biased and it is restricted to the well-trodden paths of everyday life. And as there are by far more women at milongas, we (us guys) will more often get into contact with female esoterism. Secondly, many guys are not aware of their attitudes, more of, they will not speak of them or reveal themselves publically.
But I'm there to dance, not talk about philosophy, the conversation at a milonga is usually about things friends would normally talk about when they see each other. Most of the esotericism in tango seems to be online, where the universal online advice about taking a sceptical approach to whatever you read applies...
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Of course, they are still among us!
Why do you think my favorite milonga is called so?
Home - La Bruja
www.labruja.nl
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
As many of you know I'm a relative beginner, and my GF has been dancing for years, so here's our dilemma. I'm at the point where I've learned enough to not only sought-after by many of the followers in our community, but I'm being verbally asked, and my 'dance card' gets pretty loaded up. In fact, I get ladies coming up to me as I'm getting ready to leave with my GF, and it depends if I have any shoe(s) off if I decide to dance with them (with my GF's permission since we have a 'first-and-last-tanda' rule in effect). Nevertheless, we typically dance at least 75 percent of the dances with each other.
That said, this past weekend we had a Milonga on Saturday and of course I danced with my GF for the first few tandas (two at least), but again, four ladies stopped by and asked me to dance, and I ended up with 2 of those (the others weren't available when I was). My GF sat out a couple dances, which was somewhat unusual, since she's the one leaders seem to jump on when given the chance, and I sat out one when she was dancing with another leader.
Last night (Sun) was our usual 'advanced' class and follow-on Practalonga, and the 'mix' of leaders-followers was a fairly even, with about 6 extra followers out of 100 total dancers in the room. Aside from dancing with my GF for most of the tandas, I ended up with 6 different followers throughout the afternoon, and she only danced with 2 other leaders (besides myself).
My GF always makes herself presentable to set herself apart, and is one of the 'peacocks' in the room; 5'7", 135 lbs (fit), naturally busty, milky skin, blonde hair done-up with the ends curled and flipped, wears classy jewelry and fashionable outfits, has a sexy shoes and appearance, etc., When I started this journey, she warned me that I'll be sought-after once I get good enough, and it seems I am, but I am sensing a little frustration on the part of my GF. I will say, since we've been dancing together, I have noticed she seems to have become more selective (than she used to be) and tries to avoid leaders who she isn't as interested in dancing with for a variety of reasons (B.O., bad breath, too sweaty, mushy lead, bad posture, wrong fit, trying to pull her in for a extra close embrace, etc.).
My GF had a chat with another experienced follower who is much younger than us, who's oddly experiencing a little of the same frustration of not having leaders ask her as much as she'd like. They talked about that frustration, and now that my GF has me as a partner, it may have narrowed the field of leaders.
Then she told me something that this other follower mentioned, was how the other leaders may be a little intimidated by my presence especially since we're a couple many leaders who might otherwise ask her aren't. I will say I don't have the appearance of the typical leaders in tango; I'm a retired US Marine, fit and in shape, dress sharp, etc. My GF made a joke about it, saying about those other leaders might be thinking I'd "beat them up" which I found rather amusing, since I'm a mellow, friendly guy, and this isn't a high-school sock-hop.
There seems to be a few married followers who are quite talented that leaders seem to favor over my GF for the simple reason they show up alone without their husband (or a partner for that matter). I encourage my GF to cabeceo or even 'ask' those leaders she has known over the years that she'd be interested in dancing with. I still believe there are a few obstacles she'll never overcome; that we're a couple, that she's quite talented (executes more embellishments than most of the other followers), she might be a little intimidating herself to the more timid leaders, and that there is a surplus of other followers to choose from.
To be honest, leaders do ask her, particularly in the very beginning while I'm in the restroom squaring myself away and before we dance the first tanda. Out of respect for each other we have first-and-last-tanda rule in effect, so she uses this as an excuse to not accept a dance until later into the evening, and those leaders understand. Conversely, some of those are leaders she really doesn't care to dance with anyways (for those reasons I listed above). (We have another 'rule' she put into effect; that neither of us goes to a Milonga without the other.)
One other thing that 'might' be working against her in particular, is that we sit with each other probably a little too much when we should be doing a little more socializing and networking. Even so, dancers do make their rounds and we chat with them, so that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.
So, we'll continue to work on strategies to get a more 'even amount' of dances with others so she's not sitting while I'm dancing. But, I'm not holding my breath, since I'm getting the impression as I'm getting better and more popular with the followers, my GF is trying to keep me to herself, and other dancers may be noticing. Being a 'tango snob' is something she's trying hard to avoid, but it may not delay the inevitable; not being asked and sitting more than she likes. So, she's going to have to make herself available a little more than she has been (and how she used to do before she met me).
That said, this past weekend we had a Milonga on Saturday and of course I danced with my GF for the first few tandas (two at least), but again, four ladies stopped by and asked me to dance, and I ended up with 2 of those (the others weren't available when I was). My GF sat out a couple dances, which was somewhat unusual, since she's the one leaders seem to jump on when given the chance, and I sat out one when she was dancing with another leader.
Last night (Sun) was our usual 'advanced' class and follow-on Practalonga, and the 'mix' of leaders-followers was a fairly even, with about 6 extra followers out of 100 total dancers in the room. Aside from dancing with my GF for most of the tandas, I ended up with 6 different followers throughout the afternoon, and she only danced with 2 other leaders (besides myself).
My GF always makes herself presentable to set herself apart, and is one of the 'peacocks' in the room; 5'7", 135 lbs (fit), naturally busty, milky skin, blonde hair done-up with the ends curled and flipped, wears classy jewelry and fashionable outfits, has a sexy shoes and appearance, etc., When I started this journey, she warned me that I'll be sought-after once I get good enough, and it seems I am, but I am sensing a little frustration on the part of my GF. I will say, since we've been dancing together, I have noticed she seems to have become more selective (than she used to be) and tries to avoid leaders who she isn't as interested in dancing with for a variety of reasons (B.O., bad breath, too sweaty, mushy lead, bad posture, wrong fit, trying to pull her in for a extra close embrace, etc.).
My GF had a chat with another experienced follower who is much younger than us, who's oddly experiencing a little of the same frustration of not having leaders ask her as much as she'd like. They talked about that frustration, and now that my GF has me as a partner, it may have narrowed the field of leaders.
Then she told me something that this other follower mentioned, was how the other leaders may be a little intimidated by my presence especially since we're a couple many leaders who might otherwise ask her aren't. I will say I don't have the appearance of the typical leaders in tango; I'm a retired US Marine, fit and in shape, dress sharp, etc. My GF made a joke about it, saying about those other leaders might be thinking I'd "beat them up" which I found rather amusing, since I'm a mellow, friendly guy, and this isn't a high-school sock-hop.
There seems to be a few married followers who are quite talented that leaders seem to favor over my GF for the simple reason they show up alone without their husband (or a partner for that matter). I encourage my GF to cabeceo or even 'ask' those leaders she has known over the years that she'd be interested in dancing with. I still believe there are a few obstacles she'll never overcome; that we're a couple, that she's quite talented (executes more embellishments than most of the other followers), she might be a little intimidating herself to the more timid leaders, and that there is a surplus of other followers to choose from.
To be honest, leaders do ask her, particularly in the very beginning while I'm in the restroom squaring myself away and before we dance the first tanda. Out of respect for each other we have first-and-last-tanda rule in effect, so she uses this as an excuse to not accept a dance until later into the evening, and those leaders understand. Conversely, some of those are leaders she really doesn't care to dance with anyways (for those reasons I listed above). (We have another 'rule' she put into effect; that neither of us goes to a Milonga without the other.)
One other thing that 'might' be working against her in particular, is that we sit with each other probably a little too much when we should be doing a little more socializing and networking. Even so, dancers do make their rounds and we chat with them, so that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.
So, we'll continue to work on strategies to get a more 'even amount' of dances with others so she's not sitting while I'm dancing. But, I'm not holding my breath, since I'm getting the impression as I'm getting better and more popular with the followers, my GF is trying to keep me to herself, and other dancers may be noticing. Being a 'tango snob' is something she's trying hard to avoid, but it may not delay the inevitable; not being asked and sitting more than she likes. So, she's going to have to make herself available a little more than she has been (and how she used to do before she met me).
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
A gap between partnered leaders dancing with many followers other than their partner while their partner sits is normal here. When I hit the milonga with my partner, I can – if I wish – not sit down for four hours at a stretch, leave with followers grumpy that we didn't dance, and come home to Messenger communications about that. My partner might get three invitations besides mine, despite being a very capable dancer. And among our coupled tango friends, that isn't remarkable or special in any way.
Here, the 3:2 to 2:1 follower-to-leader ratio is part of it, but there's a bigger component I cannot explain. My best guess is that it's tied to the prevalent "leaders invite, followers wait to be invited" culture in tango. Lone leaders, especially, tend to invite uncoupled followers . . . even if they're saying, "It's just dancing," it isn't just dancing. They like to think they have a chance at more.
Personal context counts for a lot, too. I used to be the barman at a tango studio, so I know a lot of people. I also used to accompany lots of uncoupled women, so I know a lot of followers in particular. I can invite just about any non-milonga princess (the princesses don't even look at me . . . I'm too old). Whereas my partner is just another member of the community with no special past or social ties. So we have an explanation.
I find it weird that in your case, your partner is the longer-term, connected dancer yet frustrated at the lack of invitations. Looks don't count for very much . . . so I'd be thinking about past refusals. Many leaders – as in, most of those I know (and I know many) – won't invite someone ever again if the first refusal is a even a little bit brusque. It's hard to discuss this with a life partner, but it's often the real explanation.
Here, the 3:2 to 2:1 follower-to-leader ratio is part of it, but there's a bigger component I cannot explain. My best guess is that it's tied to the prevalent "leaders invite, followers wait to be invited" culture in tango. Lone leaders, especially, tend to invite uncoupled followers . . . even if they're saying, "It's just dancing," it isn't just dancing. They like to think they have a chance at more.
Personal context counts for a lot, too. I used to be the barman at a tango studio, so I know a lot of people. I also used to accompany lots of uncoupled women, so I know a lot of followers in particular. I can invite just about any non-milonga princess (the princesses don't even look at me . . . I'm too old). Whereas my partner is just another member of the community with no special past or social ties. So we have an explanation.
I find it weird that in your case, your partner is the longer-term, connected dancer yet frustrated at the lack of invitations. Looks don't count for very much . . . so I'd be thinking about past refusals. Many leaders – as in, most of those I know (and I know many) – won't invite someone ever again if the first refusal is a even a little bit brusque. It's hard to discuss this with a life partner, but it's often the real explanation.
I always remember the nature show I saw many years ago that talked about mate guarding in primates.
I rarely approach the female half of an obvious couple unless I've been encouraged to do so by the guy. I even notice if two people walk into the room together. To my way of thinking, it shows that I respect the fact that they ARE a couple.
If a known couple sits in different parts of the room, or circulates separately rather than parking in one spot, I see that as a sign that the woman is open to accepting invitations and that the man is ok with that. Physical presence is the main indicator of "mate guarding," intended or not.
PS After looking at written definitions of the term, I'd say don't take the reproductive part too literally.
PPS I could tell yo a story about asking a woman to dance when I was in Vegas one time. NO one got hurt, but it wan't pretty.
Also, it's possible that your GF has gotten too good for some guys to think that she would enjoy dancing with them, especially if you two look really good dancing together. Another thing I always notice about the women is what movements they seem to enjoy while dancing. If those things aren't in my preferred vocabulary, they most likely won't get an ask from me.
And, yeah, first refusal is last refusal for me.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
Well said and I shared this with my partner and she agreed with everything. She even went on to tell me about her experiences in BA, being the 'gringa' and not getting invitations, and using taxi-dancers.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I was thinking, which is why I (somewhat) get up, stand, walk around a little, and give us some space so it doesn't look like either of us is 'guarding' one another.
For example, I'll make an excuse to use the men's room for that very reason. I want to see who's out there since a lot of the single followers congregate at one end of the dance floor (near the refreshments and restrooms/changing rooms).
This is another reality. My GF was good before I came into the picture, and she didn't need lessons. But, who doesn't, really? Everyone in our community sees us at the int-adv class or coming from one then onto a milonga or practalonga. So now that we've moved up to the int-adv classes (and private lessons) together, we now look good and can execute many more steps than I see done with some of her older 'regulars' she used to dance with.
Little side story on that, one that I'm a little ashamed about because I came off a little insecure.
A few months back, we attended a milonga that we've never been to before, and my GF ran into a short, rotund leader she has danced with over the last few years (pre-Covid) who I'll call 'Carlos' (not his real name) for the sake of the story. She doesn't really like to dance with Carlos because of the height difference, his big beer gut, and he perspires a lot (wet shirts). I will say, he dresses appropriately (nice shirt, slacks, ect.). Don't get me wrong, Carlos is a nice guy who's friendly, and his heart is in the right place.
He's an above average dancer, and after my GF and I had a couple tandas under our belt, Carlos came to our table and asked her to dance, which she obliged. I sat this one out, and while I was looking around they passed me, going out of their way to attempt to execute volcadas that I really wasn't interested in seeing because we hadn't done them as a couple. I wasn't in the mood to watch my GF leaning into and onto Carlos' belly, stumbling through the step. And I told her so; that it was a little insulting to me (at the time). I went on to say, if you're intention is to show me 'your stuff' then do it with 'dancer X' (who's an accomplished dancer btw, and not this chubby fella in a pony tail who wasn't getting the step right.
Interestingly, she did admit that it was awkward, then went on to share a story about another dancer she danced with over the years who berated her for dancing with sub-par leaders at a tango festival, since it made him look bad. And I had to agree with that to some extent, especially in the context as I described. Am I being a 'tango snob' just like the older friend of hers did years ago? Hell yeah. And no, none of these 'old pros' take any classes and haven't done so for years, so maybe the should!
Nonetheless, while my GF is now being more selective, it comes with a price and is a double-edged sword; on one hand she doesn't want to be "that follower" who turns down dances, then doesn't get asked again. Or on the other hand accepting tandas from leaders she isn't interested in for a multitude of reasons and has to suffer through it and misses out dancing with me, or other more experienced leaders.
I want her to dance freely with good dancers so it's an enjoyable time, and so I can dance with other followers. But she constantly tells me quietly she's not interested certain leaders, usually ones she has danced with countless times before, and she's only interested in dancing with me the most, then leaders x, y, and z etc.
I will give Carlos credit for his tenacity; at the next milonga he asked my GF again to dance, and she told him; "not this time Carlos, your shirt is too wet and I don't want my nice dress soiled." to which he graciously accepted. Now going on to the most recent milonga a couple weeks ago, here's Carlos again, asking her to dance, which she did so (hesitatingly), since his shirt was dry.
One thing I do notice when my GF accepts a 'mercy tanda' from guys like Carlos and a few other, older, more seasoned leaders (who aren't her favorites either) is when I make eye contact with her on the dance floor, unbeknownst to others, she'll open her eyes a little wider, or roll them a tiny bit, as if to signal how the tanda is going.
So goes the fine line between accepting, or rejecting tandas, both of which have consequences.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
TNiSD, I'm glad to see you are still in action and making progress.
This could be reaching, so please take it as just speculation. Another thought, could it be your GF is afraid to look too happy with others? Could it be it is "safe" to express some displeasure? She wants to please you, that is awesome, but it could have spin-off effects. I know you had a bit of a rough start (I did too, for different reasons). Again, this is just wild speculation! I can definitely say pleasing me has cut the number of tandas my DW has done with others -- I appreciate her working with me on things!
Caveat: I have not had a typical Tango journey, so don't assume my thoughts extend to all leaders.
For me at least, this is not monotonic. Here are 4 cases:
- Neither one is dancing at all. I assume there are newbies, so sometimes I'll walk up and ask "Are you two dancing tonight?" Sometimes I'll grab my dear wife (DW) to do a mutual ask so both parties can join the fun at the same time. She is a good sport about this.
- If a guy sits with a lady, and he doesn't dance or rarely dances, but she is dancing, I'll ask if she'll look my way. My perception is this is how you started.
- If a couple is dancing a lot with each other, like every 2nd or 3rd tanda, and sitting close, I assume it is date night or they haven't seen each other in a long time or something, and not ask. My perception is this is how it is going now for you.
- Even if they are obviously a couple, and even if dancing together often, if they sit apart I'll ask. It sounds like you are not doing this. Consider giving this a try.
I would strongly advise against doing this, even if you think it is slight and no one is seeing it. If I see a lady doesn't look happy when dancing I probably won't ask. Note, looking serious is fine, looking bored or unhappy worries me that I won't be able to provide a good tanda for this person. If I see a lady roll her eyes while dancing, and the two weren't talking, I'd be inclined to never ask her. I'm not great at reading body language, but many people are... Roll your eyes at your own risk! Save comments on things like that for the ride home.
This could be reaching, so please take it as just speculation. Another thought, could it be your GF is afraid to look too happy with others? Could it be it is "safe" to express some displeasure? She wants to please you, that is awesome, but it could have spin-off effects. I know you had a bit of a rough start (I did too, for different reasons). Again, this is just wild speculation! I can definitely say pleasing me has cut the number of tandas my DW has done with others -- I appreciate her working with me on things!
Caveat: I have not had a typical Tango journey, so don't assume my thoughts extend to all leaders.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
The men's restroom is an important tactical position for me at a milonga with my SO. So if I go there during the Cortina to "wash my hands" and come back during the first song, then to see if my partner is dancing or not and react accordingly.
You shouldn't let that put you off inviting people. Some people are just not good at pretending they're enjoying something when they are not. I know because I'm one of them. (appearing to be happy when dancing with a partner generally viewed as an inconsiderate dancer can also cause some of their bad reputation to rub off on you)
Just because people enjoy the gancho/boleo complex doesn't mean they don't also enjoy walking as well or vice versa.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
Yes, at first I was too inexperienced to dance with other experienced dancers, so I sat when my GF danced with a few other leaders (2-3).
Yes, you are correct for the most part. We consider our 'social dancing' to be 'date night' on those occasions when we're attending a milonga. A practalonga not so much so. She has a lot of contacts in the community, but they seem to be either acting differently now that I'm in the picture, or they only know her from seeing her before, but never danced. She does wonder 'why' some don't cabeceo or ask, which is another perplexing thing for her. But as was said before, the single leaders will gravitate to the single followers almost exclusively.
We're a lot like this. We dance at a minimum the first 2, maybe 3 tandas together, but that may be fluid and I end up dancing with a follower she knows, or one of the other matriarchs of the community. My GF also has those 'special' songs that we have to dance together (for nostalgia or tradition sake).
We sit together is an area with a few other couples (not many), on a couch, and sometimes a husband of a couple we know will be the first to ask her. Oddly, as much as she likes to dance with that leader, there have been a couple instances where he turned her down due to needing a break, or in the case of the practalonga on Sunday, he split the tanda with another leader (2, 1). But, we are known amongst enough of the folks to make it possible for them to also invite her, so we don't have an empty chair between us so to speak. No matter where we sit, people already know we're a couple, and we still encourage each other to dance with other people.
When the 'rolling of the eyes' happens it's so subtle, it's only when 'the-coast-is-clear' and she's right in front of me. Most of the time she's closing her eyes to 'feel' the music, since she has mentioned even some of those old patriarchs can't dance as well as they could. I know she does a lot to help the leaders out and does a good enough job to make the leaders look good (even when they're not). She has never looked "unhappy" while out on the floor, and only tells me how things went. And yes, she always gives me her 'take' on the leaders she dances with, and even gives me her 'opinion' about the followers I dance with, sometimes with a little hint of envy, especially if the follower is one of 'those' who dresses a little flashy or provocatively.
She doesn't show any signs either way, and is just in the moment typically. I'm not too sure about "pleasing me" since if I'm out there dancing with someone else, I may catch a glimpse of her, but not any expressions, so I'm not studying how well things are being executed, nor does she seem to be trying to do something to please me. Quite frankly, from what little I've seen it looks like she's concentrating on the dance with the leader (expressionless).
As far as pleasing me, she did execute that volcada with the intent of 'pleasing me' (her words) that I wasn't too pleased about because of the particular leader she was doing it with. Conversely, I told her if she wants to 'showcase her stuff' to do it with one of the experienced leaders she matched-up with, not a short chubby guy with a big beer belly.
Also, I mentioned feeling guilty of being a little insecure about her being flashy in front of me and the rest of the people, which made me feel a little embarrassed and cheated out of the opportunity since we hadn't practiced doing volcadas together before that particular milonga. I know it sounds childish, but being a very quick learner and are already doing things that advanced dancers are doing, so at that time I didn't want that to be a prohibiting factor in me getting dances with other followers who might see me as less capable, since it might be assumed my GF had to go dance with another follower to execute cool steps.
I'm with you on that! Again, I'm proud of her skills, but I'd like the opportunity to work on things between the two of us FIRST. If she executes things with others afterwards, and does so flawlessly, great. I will say, I've had a couple occasions where somehow I danced tandas with other followers, and she had a tinge of envy. Case-in-point; there's a couple followers at her level who dress quite flashy and provocatively, and are sought-after by many leaders that I danced with. One time this one particular follower was I were having a good tanda and I can tell people were watching. At the end of the tanda we did a 'non-tanda' twirl, and ended in a little flash. My GF thought it wasn't appropriate and I could sense a tiny bit of envy (I'm sure you get the drift).
On that note, another thing she talked about was women pressing into me, especially on the side of my face (which almost all do). My GF thinks this too shouldn't be encouraged, possibly related to the law-of-the-jungle (guarding of her mate thing mentioned above) and that it's too intimate. I don't encourage it, but I don't discourage it either. What my GF told me was she always keeps about a half inch space between faces, something not too many followers do with me. In fact, most followers grab me and want the close embrace, something I'm still perfecting (and doing pretty good at it).
Yes, I've read your initial experiences with Tango, particularly about the embrace. My journey has been pretty standard, and from the feedback I, and my GF are getting it seems I'm on the fast track, especially seeing I'm not only getting compliments, but a lot of followers are eager to dance with me, including the ones I was intimidated by (at first).
Great words of wisdom, thanks!