Why some women are not asked to dance

[itwillhappen]

As soon as someone says, "I've taken enough lessons," they've admitted that they're falling back on being "good enough" . . . but they can't expect people who continue to work to keep dancing with them.

The opinions differ on that. Some say you need lifelong instruction, otherwise you'll fall behind. Others say that eight private lessons are enough, plus a glass of red wine, and you'll develop your own style.

If you stop taking lessons relatively early on, then of course you also find yourself outside of groups, of hierarchies. From what I've heard, well-connected followers didn't find it amusing that I showed up at events they hat to wait years to attend. Let's face it, back then they weren't interested, I got around the situation quickly and we also don't dance together today, however.

 

[itwillhappen]

Looks don't count for very much . . . so I'd be thinking about past refusals. Many leaders – as in, most of those I know (and I know many) – won't invite someone ever again if the first refusal is a even a little bit brusque.

Yes and no. In the beginning I found it very exhausting that I simply didn't know whether I was expected to invite or whether I was expected not to invite. If something went wrong, then I implicitly demanded a reversal of activity and thus also a reversal of risk. Women can also make it absolutely clear that they want to dance with you.

 

[TTanguero]

Women can also make it absolutely clear that they want to dance with you.

For sure. Both mirada and cabeceo are equal-opportunity tools.

To me, one of the many benefits of cabeceo is that the closest anyone can get to a rude refusal is a facial expression which says 'Who are you kidding, mate?!'

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

To me, one of the many benefits of cabeceo is that the closest anyone can get to a rude refusal is a facial expression which says 'Who are you kidding, mate?!'

 

[SierraAlpha]

Thanks for reviving this thread! I've been wondering recently how my GF could get asked more. She is a beginner - about the level of the least skilled followers of the local milongas. She is, however, very attractive so I would expect her to be asked fair bit. Especially since there are quite a few experienced leaders here who seem to focus on young, attractive inexperienced women. (As far as I can tell, nothing creepy going on there)

I always remember the nature show I saw many years ago that talked about mate guarding in primates.
I rarely approach the female half of an obvious couple unless I've been encouraged to do so by the guy. I even notice if two people walk into the room together. To my way of thinking, it shows that I respect the fact that they ARE a couple.

Fascinating. This never occurred to me. I invite exclusively through cabaceo (not walkaceo), so as far as I'm concerned, it's the woman's responsibility to navigate the dynamic between her and the man she is sitting with, and to decide whether dancing with me is fine or not.

Since my girlfriend started coming to the milongas, majority of the men that dance with her thank me afterwards. We both find that hilarious.

If we want to sit together and talk, we'll put an empty chair in between us to make it clear to feel free to ask the TD.

Oh, this is an interesting idea. At most milongas here it would not be practical for us (more people than sitting space) but we might try it at some.

 

[SierraAlpha]

Many leaders – as in, most of those I know (and I know many) – won't invite someone ever again if the first refusal is a even a little bit brusque.

Fascinating. This never occurred to me either. I tend not to reject, and instead just pretend that I don't notice a mirada (although if a woman walks up to me to ask verbally I will usually just say "no, thank you"). But personally I prefer to receive a firm, no-room-for-doubt, mirada-then-look-away rejection. That way I know not to waste my time on this follower for the rest of this milonga, or at lest for the next few hours.

What drives me crazy is women who stare at me intensely while they dance (which I interpret as an invitation to invite) but then reject my invitations or go out of their way not to notice them. A good dose of this time-wasting game will definitely put a follower on my "never again" list.

 

[SierraAlpha]

All dancers need lessons.

I disagree. I've danced with quite a few followers who probably haven't taken a lesson in the past 10 years and they were excellent.

Fresh sweat doesn't smell, only older sweat, which means either that they didn't shower or are wearing unwashed clothes.

Not true. If I shower just before getting ready for a milonga, it will still be 5-6 hours before I leave the milonga. In my case that's definitely enough for it to start to smell. As far as I know, I'm not unusual in this regard. I'm not saying that you should invite smelly people.

There are followers I don't invite because they dance exclusively with leaders who teach, perform, and tour. I cannot give them a tanda that good.

This would never occur to me either. I would not invite many touring teachers, not to mention performers, because I think they cannot dance well. I am sometimes intimidated but I think it has more to do with my state of mind in that moment than with the follower or her preferences. If I think she is good enough for me, I'm pretty confident she will enjoy a tanda with me.

 

[SierraAlpha]

I have a looks-related prejudice for sure:

• Young, slim, fit, pretty, well-dressed, flexible, etc.? Well, here's a princess. The self-appointed princes will be all over her, as will be the creeps. She won't sit down often. She doesn't need me.
• Middle-aged or older dancer who has been in the milonga for decades? Now I'm interested . . . this person isn't trading on looks, but actually knows how to dance.

Interesting. The first few years of my adventure with tango, when I was learning and dancing Villa Urquiza style, I was often too insecure to invite the young, attractive women. I think it wasn't even the impression I would make on them (they could see me dance and so should know what to expect) but I didn't want to be in the spotlight that their beauty would attract. Besides, I was on a quest to find my tango and I thought that more experienced followers would greatly help me with that.

Later I abandoned tango salon and cut out any move that would require loosening the embrace. Now I enjoy much more dancing with beautiful women, especially the young sexy ones. That's definitely a very strong criterion for me.

 

[TTanguero]

If I shower just before getting ready for a milonga, it will still be 5-6 hours before I leave the milonga. In my case that's definitely enough for it to start to smell.

Interesting – it's rare for me to leave a milonga before the end, but I've never smelled body odour on anyone who didn't arrive with it.

 

[Tango Distance]

If I see a lady doesn't look happy when dancing I probably won't ask. Note, looking serious is fine, looking bored or unhappy worries me that I won't be able to provide a good tanda for this person.

You shouldn't let that put you off inviting people. Some people are just not good at pretending they're enjoying something when they are not. I know because I'm one of them. (appearing to be happy when dancing with a partner generally viewed as an inconsiderate dancer can also cause some of their bad reputation to rub off on you)

 

[Tango Distance]

If I see a lady doesn't look happy when dancing I probably won't ask. Note, looking serious is fine, looking bored or unhappy worries me that I won't be able to provide a good tanda for this person.

You shouldn't let that put you off inviting people.

Thanks for your post, and that is good food for thought. I have multiple thoughts on the issue:

• If someone looks consistently unhappy across several partners, that person might just have RBF or be a bit autistic or in a bit of pain or having a tough time or something. Thanks to your post, I've expanded my thinking and I'll now invite someone who looks unhappy with multiple partners.
• I have seen ladies looking downright unhappy sitting down. I think this is usually due to not being asked,. It's a vicious circle, they are less likely to get asked if not smiling! I'll ask them. Several times I've had the great experience it breaks the ice for them, and they smile the rest of the night then.
• I did have a tanda with an angry lady once. It was memorable! Ironically, aside from whatever problem she was having, it was a good tanda in a different way. She was angry the whole night! I hope our tanda was a little bit of catharsis for her.
• This bullet will get to the point in a roundabout way. Suppose you go to a milonga, and don't know someone except for things like:
  • They brought food or drink treats
  • They look to be happy with their life partner
  • They seem to be happy the whole time, even if dancing with a beginner
• ... bullet continued ... Suppose the opposite cases:
  • Complain about the food or music or host
  • Not nice to their life partner
  • Looking unhappy
• ... bullet continued .... Everything else being equal, you'd ask someone from the 1st group ahead of someone from the 2nd.

... yet more continuation ... I have progressed enough in my tango I'm now seeing this: A lady will turn down a newer guy, or look unhappy while dancing with him. She'll beam a bright smile with me and while we dance. These ladies are good dancers, and I enjoy dancing with them, but I'll admit it does bug me a bit when they show obvious disdain for some of the newer dancers. That was me not that long ago. I won't put them on the "never ask again" list (it's only 1 person long), but I suppose if I made a ranking of followers it would knock some points off their score, in other words others get asked ahead of them.

Some people are just not good at pretending they're enjoying something when they are not. I know because I'm one of them. (appearing to be happy when dancing with a partner generally viewed as an inconsiderate dancer can also cause some of their bad reputation to rub off on you)

 

[Tango Distance]

Some people are just not good at pretending they're enjoying something when they are not. I know because I'm one of them.

I'm not saying you are wrong in any way, but there are practical difficulties... I'm a visitor who knows no one. How am I to know though you look unhappy at the moment, you will enjoy a tanda with me? It seems a lot safer to ask smilers first? I might not have time to study things and decide it is due to bad leading. Getting philosophical for a moment: Someone who looks happy (or at least not unhappy) with a beginner might have a broader range of ways to enjoy dances, and therefore my odds of a tanda she enjoys (and I enjoy) is higher. I plan to do a future post that explores this some more.

(appearing to be happy when dancing with a partner generally viewed as an inconsiderate dancer can also cause some of their bad reputation to rub off on you)

FWIW, I have seen collisions, dancing too big, backing up too much, going too fast, and more with ladies with big smiles. I blame the leader!

 

[Rabbit]

... yet more continuation ... I have progressed enough in my tango I'm now seeing this: A lady will turn down a newer guy, or look unhappy while dancing with him.

That's a catch-22 though. I would give them credit for dancing with the beginners even if they are not enjoying it that much.

I might not have time to study things and decide it is due to bad leading.

Its not necessarily bad leading. If one partner looks unhappy or bored, they're just dancing with a mismatched partner for them, either for social reasons that have nothing to do with the actual dance or because they prefer a mediocre dance to sitting around.

Getting philosophical for a moment: Someone who looks happy (or at least not unhappy) with a beginner might have a broader range of ways to enjoy dances, and therefore my odds of a tanda she enjoys (and I enjoy) is higher.

Maybe, but I don't think we get to choose if we are that kind of personality type or not, and neither whom we enjoy dancing with.

 

[LadyLeader]

Getting philosophical for a moment: Someone who looks happy (or at least not unhappy) with a beginner might have a broader range of ways to enjoy dances, and therefore my odds of a tanda she enjoys (and I enjoy) is higher.

Exactly! How wonderful to find a peer to share this idea with!

For me it is like deeply enjoy talking with a 5 year old and then have a fantastic conversation with the academic parent! If you only appreciate the academic challenges you become limited with fewer moments to remember.

To broaden my range of enjoyment/skill has become important and I have actually decided to focus on dances with *tango children* and followers far above my personal skill. Will be actual at least for this fall and maybe even long time after that.

 

[Rabbit]

For me it is like deeply enjoy talking with a 5 year old and then have a fantastic conversation with the academic parent! If you only appreciate the academic challenges you become limited with fewer moments to remember.

I don't think the ability to communicate with someone on their level for a few minutes is difficult. The question is whether we enjoy their company, what they're saying, and how they're saying it.