Why some women are not asked to dance

[Tangogal]

Seems like my thoughts on specific leaders and their behaviours and motivations has been interpreted as all leaders. It is not all leaders.

As a 90% follower I sit more than I would like. However, this is due to the numbers game 3:1 followers:leaders. Not due to vibes, empathetic leaders, my amazing (not!) dance skills or how I look.

If I go to a milonga and X doesn’t look my way it’s not something I worry about. He may have formed an incorrect opinion of me, he may prefer taller followers etc etc. His reasons are his own.

If I go to a milonga and nobody dances with me then I have to examine what I’m doing wrong (it’s usually forgetting to make eye contact or failing to notice a cabeceo).

A leader once told me of a conversation he had with his teachers. His back was hurting after dances. He was told it was because he was dancing too much with beginners. He had to choose between the followers that knew how to dance and the ones he wanted to dance with! He chose the sore back

I agree that the community needs to be self-sustaining and that beginners need to be attracted and encouraged but I also feel that there should be efforts made to retain skilled dancers.

 

[Bailango]

No one has mentioned, but if a follower accepts invitation before the music starts or is on the dance floor before the cortina ends, she moves lower on my list to ask. I know followers who will wait for a tanda to start before accepting an invitation.

5. Move! Go to the bar or the toilet or to say hello to a friend. The movement will catch people’s eye and they can mark where you are sitting for later.

As important is to know when to move. This goes for both leaders and followers. Don’t start moving away at the end of cortina or beginning of tanda from where you were positioned before.If a follower is in a line of sight, I might have her in the mental list of two or three followers whom to ask next. But I want to know what music is the next tanda. A few seconds later after first few notes or bars of the music, that follower has disappeared or changed position, moved somewhere in the crowd. It might take a few seconds more to spot her. Precious time wasted. I am also from corner of my eye tracking other two or three followers I had in my mental list. They usually get asked while I am spending those extra seconds searching for the mover. This can end up me not asking the mover for the rest of night because the stars may not align again - her availability, my availability, right music/tanda.

6. There is a hierarchy among leaders and they will not ask if they think a better/more important/more senior leader is looking your way

Or their friend is looking her way.

 

[Bailango]

Hmm. Not sure about this one. Personally, the hierarchy doesn't interest me much or determine who I want to dance with.

It may not be of interest to you, but chances of getting beaten to getting a yes is higher. It is akin to competing with someone whom she might want or like to dance more at that moment. I know leaders who will hold mirada/gaze at an inattentive follower for ten seconds or more.

That doesn’t mean I haven’t beaten the better leader, when there is a positioning advantage. You are aware a better leader is trying to cabaceo but she is not. You have a better chance of cabaceo, because she is looking more in general direction where you are positioned. I also get been beaten by leaders of lesser level because either he was quicker or had situational advantage.

 

[Bailango]

Fascinating. I never observed anything of the kind. Which is not to say this doesn't happen - I simply stay clear of all the tango drama and hierarchies in the spirit of "ignorance is bliss".

I had the impression that vast majority of leaders think they are God's gift to womankind and so would not know where they fit on the hierarchy. But maybe I'm just projecting ;-)

I am guessing you dance in follower heavy scene?

 

[JournalInTime]

A leader once told me of a conversation he had with his teachers. His back was hurting after dances. He was told it was because he was dancing too much with beginners. He had to choose between the followers that knew how to dance and the ones he wanted to dance with! He chose the sore back

I've had that conversation; just swap in "stiff neck" and "achy shoulder" for "sore back." In the end I made the decision to aim higher at the milonga, and leave dancing with younger, less experienced followers with bad technique to their leader peers who are closer to 20 than to 60. Those lads are still in the prime of life and can bounce back quickly. That isn't to say that I assume "younger = less capable" and "older = more capable"; there are old beginners and young prodigies. But absent time to really observe, I tend to err on the side of that.

 

[Bailango]

Hierarchies are not the only way to determine and secure one's social status. Especially since hierarchies have to be created from above and accepted from below, which is relatively difficult in the tango community.

So it could be that you are simply satisfied with your status, that it corresponds. to your self-image. At least that's how I feel myself.
And for women who aren't invited, that usually won't be the case.

You only have to look at the high table that is exclusively reserved for the visiting/local instructor community. It might be empty for first half of the milonga. Tango is only dance that liberally throws the label maestro or maestra at most instructors. Observe who they will dance with.

Tango is most hierarchy oriented social dance scene I know of among all other social dance scenes. I will certainly like to know the magical world where creating hierarchy in tango community is difficult

 

[Bailango]

Also, I am very successful at dating (whatever that means, or if it really matters). That said, from my perspective, there seems to be quite a few folks (leaders and followers) in my community whose only form of intimacy is through tango.

Why do I believe this? They've never mentioned a life partner, and never show up with one.

Not mentioning may not mean they don’t have one. I know a number of followers whose life partners have no interest in dancing. They are avid dancers and many leaders won’t be aware they have a life partner.

I think at least half the tango dancers at a milonga in bigger cities are singles.

Is there anything negative about dancing being only form of physical intimacy for singles? Tango is an intimate dance. So for singles who dance it, that will be the only form. Unless you are suggesting they try cuddle parties

 

[SierraAlpha]

I am guessing you dance in follower heavy scene?

I don't think so. I think in most places that I've danced in the ratio was pretty close to 1:1.

 

[Bailango]

My post will generalize from "intimacy" to "touch."

In my early Tango journey, I was doing a frenzy of research -- posts here on DF, psychology stuff, and more. Something that struck me was reading posts that said "Dance is the only human touch I get in a week." My brain was pretty full with my own worries at that time, but reading those posts drained out a bit of my inward focus and let in a little outward thinking. My human touch needs were being met, but I hadn't really thought about those who live alone, and their professional lives have, well, professional distance. It was a step in my journey to realize touch was an important gift I could give to others, and at least intellectually I realized it was not a big deal to give. (BTW, I have come a long ways since then.)

A 2nd aspect was learning that some people don't like eye contact, or talking, but crave human touch. Tango provides a good and even healing opportunity for them.

Touch is an important aspect of human needs. Not to derail the thread. Touch is also therapeutic. Aren’t physicians taught to touch their patients? There is a reason for that. Touch can be soothing and calm nerves.

 

[Bailango]

I don't think so. I think in most places that I've danced in the ratio was pretty close to 1:1.

In dancing world except for the top dogs and those with poor EQ, most leaders tend to be rather insecure. That’s far cry from being god’s gift to women. Intimidation of asking, fear of rejection, is she too good for me, lack of confidence in skills, and many factors contribute to leaders’ insecurities. Many better leaders confess to their dance insecurities. I know a few who are totally oblivious of how bad their skills are though they are part of community for a long time. Not talking about beginners.

 

[Bailango]

Do what you like, but there is no "right" or "wrong". At a ratio of 3:2, for every dancer you actively support, another dancer will finally stop coming to the milonga. As a DJ, I once kept a constant eye on the door. There are certainly women, or possibly men, who look briefly into the room and then go straight away home.

I have done that a few times. I left, not because of the ratio. But due to size and type of the crowd. I could go to another milonga further away, or another activity.

 

[Bailango]

There is no vibe, they are not intimidated (see earlier where the leaders think they are God’s gift). They just don’t want to dance with her.

Why would you say they aren’t intimidated. There are a number of reasons that a leader can feel intimidated about asking. There are also non-intimidating reasons. A leader wants to reduce his chance of getting a no and increase a chance of getting a yes. All things being equal, between a follower who is with a partner and one who isn’t, a leader will first ask the one without a partner.

A couple dynamics changes the equation for other dancers regarding asking. Included in that couple dynamics are their other couple friends and then their non couple friends. If I am in neither of those categories, I may have a desire to ask because she may be a good dancer but I may not ask because I am not sure if she is interested in dancing with others. Yes that can be unfair to her, but vibes and actions being projected might be giving me wrong signals. If she wants to dance with others, then it is her responsibility to signal that through her actions. If she is being passive, I will pass over.

If I am hanging out with my in-group at a milonga, I make an extra effort to be friendly to others who are not in the group. When I am by myself, I am neutral.

They choose younger, pretty, single followers.

There are certain of those that I just don’t want to dance with. I know many men that will avoid them too. Just as I know which men will jump at trying to grab first chance to dance with them.

Also the more they dance with ‘wrong’ types, the more likely I will never ask them.

 

[Bailango]

I think it is the normal complaint about older men that dance exclusively with younger women (does anyone actually like these guys?) - so probably not directed at you

Older is relative. I haven’t come across older men that only exclusively dance with younger women. I am not sure they will survive. Word gets passed very quickly. What do you think women are gossiping in ladies room? The smart ones mix and match. I know men who will almost tend to dance with people their age group or younger. These men tend to be in their 30s. I will rarely see them dance with women in their 40s or 50s, unless they happen to be a friend. By that I mean they will ask a stranger or a regular who is their age and younger but never who is older.

 

[Bailango]

No I was serious. If a leader never dances with a skilled 60ish follower then it’s because they don’t want to.

Skilled leaders who dance excessively below their level ie 50% or more of all tandas are not being welcoming or encouraging. They are showing off how great they are and/or teaching on the floor. A skilled follower who doesn’t get asked to dance much will quit and go where they’re appreciated.

It’s a waste of time wondering or worrying why X doesn’t ask you to dance. They would if they wanted to dance with you.

In my experience in dancing, if you are skilled, age doesn’t matter. A skilled 60 year old doesn’t mean they can’t be snobbish or have said a no that was perceived rudely. I see good younger leaders dancing with skilled older followers all the time. And I see young skilled followers who don’t get asked that often. As discussed in this thread there are many reasons that follower may not get asked. When a follower gets more skilled, I think it works better if they start initiating Cabaceo too.

A few weeks back I arrived at a milonga and asked a friend for the first dance. I might have asked other friend I came with or someone else. It was happenstance. She mentioned she was about to leave because she hadn’t danced yet. She had been at the milonga for the past hour and half. The rest of the night she was hardly available being constantly on the dance floor. I said to her near the end of the night “you were about to leave but you have been dancing non-stop”. She said after we had danced, everyone started asking her. She is a regular and so are 80% of the people attending the milonga. Sometimes things are random and unexplainable.

 

[Bailango]

For what it's worth, that's pretty similar to the attrition rate for beginners in any skill based activity (anything that takes an investment of time and effort to learn). Tango, scuba diving, playing a musical instrument, etc. Most activities need to draw from a pretty large pool of beginners in order to find the much smaller number of people that will stay and continue to participate (or even become addicted, LOL) for the longer term. Nothing wrong with people trying something for a bit and moving on.

Agree totally. But a skilled attentive teacher can retain more people as they go through challenging beginners phase. There will always be attrition. Good teachers can make a small dent into it.